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Is Pope Francis Digging Himself Into A Hole?
#21
Palladin,

Don't worry about WWIII yet, UPI's twitter account has been hacked... I put the link somewhere, the hackers had WWIII reported "real-time"
Sodomia delenda est

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#22
MV, Jews are not the final authority on the inspiration of Scripture. I am well aware, having dialoged with Jews about this, that they regard various books of the Bible to have various degrees of inspiration. They think that the Scriptures are their personal possession, and they or their rabbis have the final say about them. All Christians have historically rejected this thinking. All the Bible is the Word of God. The Apostles themselves affirmed this: Thus Paul wrote to Timothy: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (Timothy 3:16, 17; NKJV) Notice he did not say just the Torah, or just the prophets, or just the Psalms--but "all Scripture."

Palladin, it is not a matter of accusing Catholics of anything, it is a matter of accurately recounting history. I repeat, it is the totalitarian papal system that hijacked the church and brought in pagan influences and methods and teachings back when Bibles were few and only 5% of the population could read, that became the Villain of the ages. That papal system has victimized Catholics themselves as much as it has victimized anyone else. The character of God is so grossly misrepresented in Catholic theology, that it is a true miracle of divine grace that Catholics still are able to have faith in God and serve Him to the best of their understanding.
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#23
Quote:I am well aware, having dialoged with Jews about this, that they regard various books of the Bible to have various degrees of inspiration. They think that the Scriptures are their personal possession, and they or their rabbis have the final say about them. All Christians have historically rejected this thinking. All the Bible is the Word of God.

Yes, I know all this.

Well, Christians are wrong. Microsoft-way wrong, just like Bill Gates stole Mac's interface, Christians stole intellectual property from Jews.

And the reasons why Apple did not fight back and why the Jews did not fight back are similar too... Apple stole from Xerox, Jews stole from the Sumerians.

And then the Arabs stole from everyone in the vicinity finally making a real unholy mess.

Bunch of pirates, nothing else.
Sodomia delenda est

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#24
Not so, MV, the Scriptures were never the exclusive property of the Jews. They were entrusted to them to share with humanity. Notice again what the Apostle Paul said: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God...." That means it belongs to God, not to the Jewish rabbis or priests or scribes of ages past. God meant the Jews to be a source of blessings for all nations. It was wrong for them to try to keep to themselves all the blessings God meant for all His children on earth to receive. Notice the promise of God to Abraham: "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed." (Genesis 22:18a) So also Paul affirmed: "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, 'In you all the nations shall be blessed.' So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham." (Galations 3:8, 9; NKJV) And if that is not enough, Paul went on to say: "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29) So the Scriptures preserved by the Jews are just as much my property as any physical descendant of Abraham who ever lived. I inherit all the promises made by God to Abraham; even more so than those physical descendants of Abraham who fail to have the faith of Abraham to receive the Promised Seed of Abraham--as stated by Paul in Galatians 3:16 (NKJV): "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ."
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#25
(01-17-2015, 01:22 AM)mv Wrote: Well, Christians are wrong. Microsoft-way wrong, just like Bill Gates stole Mac's interface, Christians stole intellectual property from Jews.

Weren't the very first Christians Jews themselves, just as Jesus was? S5

Quote:And the reasons why Apple did not fight back and why the Jews did not fight back are similar too... Apple stole from Xerox, Jews stole from the Sumerians.

Isn't imitation the sincerest form of flattery? S22

Quote:And then the Arabs stole from everyone in the vicinity finally making a real unholy mess.

Bunch of pirates, nothing else.

I'm not going to get into that one. Someone is liable to start castigating all the Muslim hating here. Gah
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#26
Ron,

You don't know what you're talking about is a major issue. Scholarship does. Scholastics have studied this issue and concluded the range of 5000 murders perped in Europe by the Catholic church and most in Spain.

90% of Catholics never were involved, so your malignant views are just that, hatred and maligning of your own spiritual family as well as stupendous ignorance.



You also malign current believers as you did in your outburst here.
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#27
Palladin, your knowledge of the history of the Catholic Church is totally in error. You have no scholarship at all. Saying only 5,000 died at the hands of the totalitarian Papacy is the stupidest thing any human being has ever said. The Spanish Inquisition killed fifteen times that number in one year. Don't you know that many of these records still exist, preserved proudly by the Papacy itself? In tens of thousands of cases, the records of the trials and execution of "heretics" includes the charge of "Judaizing"--which is a code term for saying they kept the seventh-day Sabbath. We see these martyrdoms with that very charge all throughout the Christian era, for over 1200 years. So Sunday-keeping was never universal among Christians, even when obeying the fourth (Sabbath) commandment was punishable by death. The faithful Waldenses used to hand-copy portions of Scripture and sew them into the hems of their garments, then go out throughout Europe working as peddlers, and seeking people who might be receptive to the Word of God. Many historians believe it was they who laid the foundations for the Protestant Reformation. In a high mountain chapel called the Pra Del Toro, from whence Waldensian missionaries issued forth, a long list of missionaries has crosses after their names indicating their missions ended in martyrdom. If you ever get the chance, I urge you to travel to the Pra Del Toro (it still exists), and stand humbled before that list. See then if you can appreciate what REAL Christianity is. Read Fox's Book of Martyrs, and see if you can recognize the true face of Evil in the history of the world. Read The Woman Rides the Beast, by Dave Hunt, for a true and accurate history of the Papacy.

See if you can understand what the Apostle Paul was talking about when he said in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 (NASB):

Quote:Let no one in any way deceive you, for it ["the day of Christ"--v. 2] will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming.

Do you deny the inspiration of the Apostle Paul? Do you deny that this prophecy has been and will be fulfilled in history and up to the coming of Christ? If the totalitarian Papacy is not the prophesied "man of lawlessness," when who is? Who but the Papacy has dared to change the very Laws of God, substituting Sunday for the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, lumping the second with the third commandment, and dividing the tenth commandment into two separate commandments? Who but the Papacy has historically killed faithful Christians for not submitting to this usurpation of authority? Palladin, you just don't "get" how serious these issues are. Must you wait until you see the death penalty again declared for Christians who keep the Sabbath? Read Revelation 13. That is what is coming on the earth, in our lifetime.

The throne of the pope, showing he sits between two cherubims--"displaying himself as being God" (see Ex. 37:7; Isa. 6:1, 2):
   

Here is another Papal throne. Note it is a "great white throne" (see Rev. 20:11) with cherubim on either side:
   

Just Google "Papal throne" to come up with many such pictures.

If this doesn't bother you, Palladin, then why not?
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#28
(01-17-2015, 02:04 PM)Ron Lambert Wrote: Palladin, your knowledge of the history of the Catholic Church is totally in error. You have no scholarship at all. Saying only 5,000 died at the hands of the totalitarian Papacy is the stupidest thing any human being has ever said. The Spanish Inquisition killed fifteen times that number in one year.

Surprise for me too, but it appears that the number may be even lower than what Palladin gives, check Wiki.

Quote:García Cárcel estimates that the total number processed by the Inquisition throughout its history was approximately 150,000; applying the percentages of executions that appeared in the trials of 1560–1700—about 2%—the approximate total would be about 3,000 put to death. Nevertheless, it is likely that the toll was much higher, keeping in mind the data provided by Dedieu and García Cárcel for the tribunals of Toledo and Valencia, respectively. It is likely that between 3,000 and 5,000 were executed.[92]

2% death sentence rate surely goes to the contrary of today's perception.
Sodomia delenda est

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#29
Here is one site among many that exhaustively covers the total number killed by the papacy: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.html

Here is one short excerpt: "Subtracting 40 million for the Black Death�gives over 160 million persons killed by persecutions in the Middle Ages.� Of course there were also persecutions before 1100 and after 1500 that are not being considered...."
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#30
I think the total number of those killed in the name of the Church are higher than some think, and perhaps less than others. But here is the main reason for this disconnect. The low-siders tend to go with the actual numbers put to death by the Church itself, and the high-siders are also counting in the numbers of deaths committed by the representatives of the Church, or by individual clerics acting in the name of the Church, but not under their direct edict.

And this is also where the Holy See was able to assume a more benevolent appearance by directly getting others to do their dirty work for them. Obviously the numbers actually tortured and put to death, in the name of Christ, were far higher, by those acting through their own initiative and zeal. And these numbers are generally added in general, as they rightly should be, even if not officially through their own hands.

And that's where this intellectual quibbling is taking place. But the truth is that there were a huge number of innocents, who were tortured in order to extract confessions, and many later were 'terminated' in order to save their souls. But lets not quibble here, all of this was done with tacit approval of Rome, regardless who did the burning at the stake. And it was almost never directly at the hands of priests, but secular helpers, working for them. I'm sure those priests/clerics would even today believe their hands clean, since they did not throw the torch into the pile of tender. S5

But lets remember that the Holy See no longer practices such activities. In fact, they publicly repudiate them, and promise never more such acts of brutal kindness. What concerns me most is what is being done to fellow humans today, and it is being practiced in a much more barbaric manner than anything Rome could even stomach. And its all in the name of the Prophet, no less.

And who is going to put an end to all of this wanton murder? Who is going to eventually take responsibility for it? What is being committed by Islam is magnitudes greater than anything the Holy See ever contemplated. And it is rightly giving religion, in general, a very black eye. That is why I really would love to see a huge fence erected around Islam, until they either get their act together, or eventually provide their own 'Final Solution' without involving others.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#31
Here is something else, as stated by someone at a link I have forgotten. He states that there are two schools of thought within the Christian world: those who individually apply the bible to their life; and those who expect human organization to enforce the edicts of what they consider paramont. The former is mostly Protestant, and the later is the Church of Rome, through its papal structure. Personally, I reject allowing myself to be administered by some other person, in Christ's name, because I am placing myself in the very hands of that other person.

This goes against my Individualistic nature, thank you. I don't need some other person to officially pardon my sins, acting through some ecclesiastical chain-of-command. Its none of their business, nor their purview to be stepping between me and my personal relationship with my Creator. Its the main reason why I chose Anglican, over Roman, catholicism. Sorry.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#32
John, the question needs to be asked: Has the Papacy really changed at heart, and not merely in outward appearance? The nations of Western Civilization would not tolerate the kind of persecutions the Papacy in the past promulgated. Protestantism decisively dominates the Western World. America champions Religious Liberty, and most other Western nations follow suit. But what if this restraint were removed? What if all-out civil war against Moslems broke out in Europe? How many governments of Europe would turn to the Vatican for their moral sanction and authorization for such a war? And then after Moslems are disposed of, what next for the alliance of church and state? Would Religious Liberty still be valued? Would dissent against Papal authority be allowed to go unpunished?
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#33
Ron, sorry but I just have more important, and pressing, things to worry about at this time.

If the Holy See starts settling the debts of those EU countries in trouble, and they begin using that to their own political/economic dictates, then I'll start worrying. There are more threatening things out there at this time.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#34
OK, John. Everything in its season.
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#35
I am only relying on European scholastic work published recently ***about deaths*** which is posted on this website. The church probably recorded them like the Germans did the holocaust.

Ron and John are relying on anti Catholic myopia they were given by this stupid culture.

John of all people is into "human reason" and repeatedly ridicules anyone using anything but scholarship for anything else, yet on this issue John sticks with his "Catholics are probably worse than you know" stupidity.

That's simply anti Catholic bigotry speaking ignoring true scholarship with numbers recorded, no different from how anti semites would have viewed John in 1940 in Berlin. He should,but, does not know better.

Yes Ron, I am fairly up on Catholic history. I realize it was not tolerant. I also know no human with all power is tolerant, except the one authentic man, Jesus of Nazareth. IF you imagine any others would be more tolerant with that much power, you sadly have misunderstood how flawed every human is.

I have no illusions, I know when people make comments like I personally have made such as "drop A bombs and let God sort them out" they seem just stupid, but, WHAT if I had the power of the Pope in 800 AD?

That's the thing, all our "most evil men" are all leaders of states. We haven't been assigned that responsibility and it's good I wasn't.

BTW, ever consider your fellow intellectual anti Catholic bigot friend John here is a member of a church that also has tyrannized non members and also has the same type hierarchy? Study on Anglican persecution of non Anglicans in Virginia before independence. Same arrogance, same stupidity, same anti Christ mentality, just as we accuse radical Islam right now.
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#36
You do a great job of 'skimming' posts, but not 'reading' them. Had you taken the time to slow down, you would know that I am officially a catholic myself: an Anglican Catholic. Therefore I am not anti-catholic. The word 'catholic', which means "all-embracing" or "universal". I'm not even anti-Roman Catholic, but am aware of how the Holy See misused its power by getting others to do their bidding for them.

Perhaps you know less than you claim? However, if this makes you feel superior, help yourself. But do please try to take your time and stop skimming as you keep doing on a regular basis.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#37
We are discussing THE Catholic denomination.

Your denomination has persecuted people, right? It has a hierarchy like the Catholic denomination's, just as dangerous if too much power is involved.

I don't dislike your denomination( probably hold it's theology in higher esteem than any other denomination's in fact) and I don't accuse you or your peers of evil like Ron does Catholics and you do old Catholics, in fact, the greatest living theologian IMO is NT Wright, the retired Bishop of Durham. Some Anglicans were evil, not Anglicans. Same with Catholics, Baptists, atheist and Hindus.

I've traveled to hear Bishop Wright make presentations at Episcopal churches in Nashville.

I am just sick of the anti intellectual trash you 2 push. Do you even know where 90% of all Catholic evil was perped? Spain and France in a minor era. What the hell did that have to do with the rest of the entire Catholic world?

The hatefulness Catholics perped in Latin America was resisted BY THE POPE and the Bishop of Chiapas, Bartolome Las Casas. Try reading about that man, that is a man of God with no guile and less ego who the Pope appointed to resist the evil of the Spainards, that is NOT the view of bigots like Ron. May be the greatest man in the history of the west outside of Christ and Paul.

He was nearly murdered for preaching against the evil done to the natives, those people weren't acting like a Catholic anymore than my people down here were acting like Christ holding slaves and the Jim Crow era.

IF there has ever been an evil denomination, it is the SBC and the SDA church. The SBC began as a reaction for slavery, against black humanity, that is inherently anti Christ and evil. At least they officially repented last decade!

The SDA has a major theological view that the Catholic church is evil. That's sick, that's anti Christ and neither you nor I should support such evil and those people are teaching teens into these big lies. Like robots w/o questioning any of Ellen White's "history".
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#38
S13
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#39
That's some serious dialectic material there.
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#40
John has grown increasingly rash, arrogant and vitriolic in his dotage. Not only that, he seems mildly autistic given how easily he is hung up on outdated worldviews and stupid definitions no one cares about. Honestly, if he debated to people in public like he does on here with those who would not agree with him, he would be punched in the face. I try to do the same as much as I can.

Ron is a whole other dimension of ridiculousness. I gave up on both of them as serious opponents. Still like reading yours, Pat. At least you are introspective on your own character, and can change views and opinions based on new events and reality.
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