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Fascist Ideology at it again...
#21
(05-25-2013, 09:13 AM)mv Wrote: I have to admit to growing feeling of irritation about the continuing misuse of the word "fascism" here (and everywhere).... too many things that have nothing to do with it get labelled as fascist... Putin and Islam being the common examples.

In fact, I felt like asking to change the title of this thread, but no more: funny enough, WB was accurate and even prophetic.

Check this article: Woolwich attack provokes anti-Muslim backlash across UK.

The title is misleading, the main story is that all across the UK people are being arrested and charged for comments not consistent with the official ideology.

Now, this is fascism, pure and simple.

I was going to post a reply earlier in which I state that I am still looking for the Fascism in the thread. But I was waiting for the right time to throw cold water on things.

But Putin? I have no problem labeling him a Fascist. After all, its the easiest form of Collectivism to swallow. His brand is more of the "Friendly Fascist" kind so far. But he is still practicing it in the correct use of the word, as in "Heavily control and regulating of the means of production".

All this other stuff is not Fascism, but just attempts at tyranny. Remember, Juan Peron was a Fascist, and so was Francisco Franco. Both were also populists when convenient, so we need to be a bit more accurate here.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#22
What kind of fascism do you have if there is no state ideology and no persecution for opposing views? At most, Putin is an autocrat.

Fascism today is the European Union: you have (an admittedly queer) ideology that is a blend of islamophilia and pedophilia, and the arrests in the UK show persecution of the opposing views. And so do the preventive arrests in France today. Fascism tomorrow is the United States that is only a step behind Europe. Plus various islamist regimes we create everywhere. But no one else.

Anyhow, kudos to WB for correctly writing the title and passing the first prophet qualifying exam. S6
Sodomia delenda est

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#23
ps.French fascism link.
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#24
(05-25-2013, 02:01 PM)Palladin Wrote: There is no better example of intellectual fascism than the gay rights movement.

Hmm.. let's see

Gay Manifesto Wrote:We shall sodomize your sons, emblems of your feeble masculinity, of your shallow dreams and vulgar lies. We shall seduce them in your schools, in your dormitories, in your gymnasiums, in your locker rooms, in your sports arenas, in your seminaries, in your youth groups, in your movie theater bathrooms, in your army bunkhouses, in your truck stops, in your all male clubs, in your houses of Congress, wherever men are with men together. Your sons shall become our minions and do our bidding. They will be recast in our image. They will come to crave and adore us.

Women, you cry for freedom. You say you are no longer satisfied with men; they make you unhappy. We, connoisseurs of the masculine face, the masculine physique, shall take your men from you then. We will amuse them; we will instruct them; we will embrace them when they weep. Women, you say you wish to live with each other instead of with men. Then go and be with each other. We shall give your men pleasures they have never known because we are foremost men too, and only one man knows how to truly please another man; only one man can understand the depth and feeling, the mind and body of another man.

All laws banning homosexual activity will be revoked. Instead, legislation shall be passed which engenders love between men.

All homosexuals must stand together as brothers; we must be united artistically, philosophically, socially, politically and financially. We will triumph only when we present a common face to the vicious heterosexual enemy.

If you dare to cry faggot, fairy, queer, at us, we will stab you in your cowardly hearts and defile your dead, puny bodies.

We shall write poems of the love between men; we shall stage plays in which man openly caresses man; we shall make films about the love between heroic men which will replace the cheap, superficial, sentimental, insipid, juvenile, heterosexual infatuations presently dominating your cinema screens. We shall sculpt statues of beautiful young men, of bold athletes which will be placed in your parks, your squares, your plazas. The museums of the world will be filled only with paintings of graceful, naked lads.

Our writers and artists will make love between men fashionable and de rigueur, and we will succeed because we are adept at setting styles. We will eliminate heterosexual liaisons through usage of the devices of wit and ridicule, devices which we are skilled in employing.

We will unmask the powerful homosexuals who masquerade as heterosexuals. You will be shocked and frightened when you find that your presidents and their sons, your industrialists, your senators, your mayors, your generals, your athletes, your film stars, your television personalities, your civic leaders, your priests are not the safe, familiar, bourgeois, heterosexual figures you assumed them to be. We are everywhere; we have infiltrated your ranks. Be careful when you speak of homosexuals because we are always among you; we may be sitting across the desk from you; we may be sleeping in the same bed with you.

There will be no compromises. We are not middle-class weaklings. Highly intelligent, we are the natural aristocrats of the human race, and steely-minded aristocrats never settle for less. Those who oppose us will be exiled.

We shall raise vast private armies, as Mishima did, to defeat you. We shall conquer the world because warriors inspired by and banded together by homosexual love and honor are invincible as were the ancient Greek soldiers.

The family unit-spawning ground of lies, betrayals, mediocrity, hypocrisy and violence--will be abolished. The family unit, which only dampens imagination and curbs free will, must be eliminated. Perfect boys will be conceived and grown in the genetic laboratory. They will be bonded together in communal setting, under the control and instruction of homosexual savants.

All churches who condemn us will be closed. Our only gods are handsome young men. We adhere to a cult of beauty, moral and esthetic. All that is ugly and vulgar and banal will be annihilated. Since we are alienated from middle-class heterosexual conventions, we are free to live our lives according to the dictates of the pure imagination. For us too much is not enough.

The exquisite society to emerge will be governed by an elite comprised of gay poets. One of the major requirements for a position of power in the new society of homoeroticism will be indulgence in the Greek passion. Any man contaminated with heterosexual lust will be automatically barred from a position of influence. All males who insist on remaining stupidly heterosexual will be tried in homosexual courts of justice and will become invisible men.

We shall rewrite history, history filled and debased with your heterosexual lies and distortions. We shall portray the homosexuality of the great leaders and thinkers who have shaped the world. We will demonstrate that homosexuality and intelligence and imagination are inextricably linked, and that homosexuality is a requirement for true nobility, true beauty in a man.

We shall be victorious because we are fueled with the ferocious bitterness of the oppressed who have been forced to play seemingly bit parts in your dumb, heterosexual shows throughout the ages. We too are capable of firing guns and manning the barricades of the ultimate revolution.

Tremble, hetero swine, when we appear before you without our masks.

Why "intellectual"? S6
Sodomia delenda est

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#25
(05-25-2013, 11:56 PM)mv Wrote: What kind of fascism do you have if there is no state ideology and no persecution for opposing views? At most, Putin is an autocrat.

Fascism today is the European Union: you have (an admittedly queer) ideology that is a blend of islamophilia and pedophilia, and the arrests in the UK show persecution of the opposing views. And so do the preventive arrests in France today. Fascism tomorrow is the United States that is only a step behind Europe. Plus various islamist regimes we create everywhere. But no one else.

Anyhow, kudos to WB for correctly writing the title and passing the first prophet qualifying exam. S6

Does that me I can now sign off with the following:
WarBicycle, Ex-Warrior of the Waves, Prophet
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#26
As I have shown time and time again, none of this is Fascism. It is what people Think Fascism is supposed to be. There are so many threads where I have shown this time and time again, and still so many people continue to misuse the word to suit their purposes.

So let me reiterate again:

Fascism Again

THE AMERICAN ROOTS OF FASCISM: Progressivism

The Mystery of Fascism

MODERN LEFTISM AS RECYCLED FASCISM

Socialism Vs Fascism: What Differencies?

Tyranny does not have to be an exclusive property of Fascism. In fact, most Fascist governments have been more benign than other tyrannies. The key ingredient is the political-economic aspect where the veneer of property ownership is affixed to everything, rather than state ownership.

I don't know why almost everyone thinks Fascism is the ultimate evil, and associate it with Hitler and the Nazis. Hitler was a National Socialist.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#27
To show something is not enough to have everyone agree with you!

You approach to defining fascism from the economical point of view. Citing from the Richman's article,
Quote:Under fascism, the state, through official cartels, controlled all aspects of manufacturing, commerce, finance, and agriculture.

This is problematic for me, since most systems we consider fascist did not control *all* aspects; private enterprise was alive and well both in Italy and Germany. In fact, most economic control by state was achieved by the Soviets, but even that did not rise to *all*.

Otoh, most Western states today control and outright own large chunks of economy. In the US, state control progressively increased over long period of time and O-care is a major increase in state control.. so were O's bailouts. If you are willing to consider this to be the definition of fascism, US makes a perfect example! And so does Western Europe, where both the superstate and national states mess with the economy to the degree probably exceeding anything Benito could think of!

While I'm not willing to equate fascism with perfectly good term "state capitalism", it would be nice to obtain some objective numbers to compare different setups.

For instance, I suspect -- but cannot prove w/o numbers -- that in Eastern Europe state control over smaller enterprises is comparable between the under-USSR era to the under-EUSSR era. And getting back to alleged fascist Putin, I would like to see some numbers too: it is pretty clear that the state controls a few very large/strategically important companies (Gazprom), but where is the evidence that the rest of the economy is state-controlled in any way?

I prefer to reserve "fascism" to "enforced state ideology" and drop the economic part altogether... until such time as good data becomes available.
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#28
The thing is, the state can control whatever they want whenever they want here by various means. That's perfectly clear right now. At any moment 100% tyrannical if that's the current zeigeist. If not, then we're "free" to the extent our government tolerates it.
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#29
(05-27-2013, 11:15 AM)Palladin Wrote: The thing is, the state can control whatever they want whenever they want here by various means.

Quite obviously so. And this is true for most (all?) of the Western countries today.

In fact, it is difficult to find more or less developed countries that are not fascist in John's definition... Iran, perhaps? S6
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#30
(05-27-2013, 08:45 AM)John L Wrote: As I have shown time and time again, none of this is Fascism. It is what people Think Fascism is supposed to be. There are so many threads where I have shown this time and time again, and still so many people continue to misuse the word to suit their purposes.

So let me reiterate again:

Fascism Again

THE AMERICAN ROOTS OF FASCISM: Progressivism

The Mystery of Fascism

MODERN LEFTISM AS RECYCLED FASCISM

Socialism Vs Fascism: What Differencies?

Tyranny does not have to be an exclusive property of Fascism. In fact, most Fascist governments have been more benign than other tyrannies. The key ingredient is the political-economic aspect where the veneer of property ownership is affixed to everything, rather than state ownership.

I don't know why almost everyone thinks Fascism is the ultimate evil, and associate it with Hitler and the Nazis. Hitler was a National Socialist.



Quote:Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism that came to prominence in mid-20th century Europe. Fascists seek to unify their nation through a totalitarian state that promotes the mass mobilization of the national community, relying on a vanguard party to initiate a revolution to organize the nation on fascist principles. Hostile to liberal democracy, socialism, and communism, fascist movements share certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism, ethnocentrism, and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation and asserts that nations and races deemed superior should attain living space by displacing ones deemed weak or inferior.


Simply added Islam to the above paragraph taken from Wikipedia

The goal of Islam is world domination, it uses Quds Force, Hezbollah etc to enforce its Islamic principles. Islam is hostile to democracy, socialism, and communism. Islamic movements share certain common features, including the veneration of the state (Islam), a devotion to a strong leader (Allah or his earthly representative), and emphasis on ultra nationalism, ethnocentrism and militarism. (Islam) Islam views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation and asserts that nations and races deemed superior should attain living space by displacing one deem weak or inferior. (Islamic attitude towards infidel nations)
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#31
WB,

obvious problem with what you did:

Wikipedia definition insists on *nationalism*.

However, Islam (including Hezbollah) is not nationalistic. Neither is the EU. Neither was Stalin's regime.

If you keep *nationalism*, term *fascism* can be largely retired.
Sodomia delenda est

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#32
You all are still failing to place the economy as the key ingredient. You have to start with economic actions, and work one's self downward. Not the other way around. Tyranny, and other forms of control are just incidental. It is economic control, while giving the appearance of economic freedom/property that separate Fascism from other Collectivist ideologies.

Everything revolves around economics first. This has got to be understood. That is why it is so frustrating to start talking economics and watch listener's eyes start to glaze over. They fail to recognize this, because it is like a foreign language. Mussolini understood this, and is the principle reason why he modified his Socialist/Marxist ideology, because it was unworkable. Of course, any form of Collectivist ideology is 'Pie-in-the-Sky' and eventually loser.


And as for all those wacko definitions that is so prevalent out there, they are incorrect because they were taught incorrectly. They also call Fascism Left Wing, but that is also Bunk. Its not, its Left Wing Collectivism.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#33
(05-27-2013, 12:08 PM)mv Wrote: WB,

obvious problem with what you did:

Wikipedia definition insists on *nationalism*.

However, Islam (including Hezbollah) is not nationalistic. Neither is the EU. Neither was Stalin's regime.

If you keep *nationalism*, term *fascism* can be largely retired.

Is not the goal of Islam world domination or one Islamic state? Once it is finished conquering the infidels they will take on the challenge of eliminating the other Islamic sects which are primarily political.
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#34
Quote:You all are still failing to place the economy as the key ingredient.

Not failing, refusing.

At the time of Benito, state control was a novelty, today it is near universal. And saying "everyone is a fascist" is plain boring. S6
Sodomia delenda est

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#35
(05-27-2013, 12:22 PM)WarBicycle Wrote: Is not the goal of Islam world domination or one Islamic state?

Sure is, but Islam is a religion and not a nation! Thus "nationalism" is a totally wrong term. You need a more general definition, basically something that simply says "domination of US over THEM"... this would work for Islam, multiculturalism, sexual perversion ... can you phrase this better?
Sodomia delenda est

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#36
(05-27-2013, 12:36 PM)mv Wrote:
Quote:You all are still failing to place the economy as the key ingredient.

Not failing, refusing.

That's just what I said above. your eyes are glazing over.

Quote:At the time of Benito, state control was a novelty, today it is near universal. And saying "everyone is a fascist" is plain boring. S6

State control has been around for thousands of years.

Fascism is the combination of Corporatism and SYNDICALISM. By wedding the two together, presto Fascism. If any one of these two parts are missing, you do not have Fascism, PERIOD!

You can call it everything you want, but it is incorrect. And note that both deal in economic control. Its all about economics First and foremost. All the rest is just gravy over the main course.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#37
Quote:State control has been around for thousands of years.

Over economy? Come'n, the very idea that the economy can be managed is less than 200 years old!
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#38
(05-27-2013, 12:48 PM)mv Wrote:
Quote:State control has been around for thousands of years.

Over economy? Come'n, the very idea that the economy can be managed is less than 200 years old!

I meant nothing of the sort. Go back and reread your post above. You said nothing about 'economy' in that sentence. And since your eyes had glazed over, I assumed you were making a general statement.

But in fact, almost everything man does is economic based. That is where the concept of 'reciprocity' comes from: "You do something for me, and I do something for you". That is the very ground rule for economic theory. It is even practiced by some primates today.

Everything has roots in economic application. If this can't be recognized then I am wasting my time here. Hell, even marriages in ancient times were based on economic alliances between groups/tribes.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#39
Quote:state control was a novelty
should be changed to
Quote:state control over economy was a novelty
... I though this was obvious.

Quote:Everything has roots in economic application.
is not valid. Of course, economy is a foundation of a society, but it is not the only foundation. Ideology is another, and we know that ideology can trump economy. -- perhaps this is the definition we are looking for?
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#40
Quote:The video being circulated online reportedly dates back to 1988 and shows a younger Nasrallah saying:
“Our plan, to which we, as faithful believers, have no alternative, is to establish an Islamic state under
the rule of Islam.”
“Lebanon should not be an Islamic republic on its own, but rather, part of the Greater Islamic Republic,
governed by the Master of Time [the Mahdi], and his rightful deputy, the Jurisprudent Ruler, Imam
Khomeini,” he said.

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