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6 Reasons Why Rational Thinkers Choose to Believe in God
#1
This article and the accompanying videos, from Dr. Peter Kreeft, are about as logical, level headed, and even handed, as you will find for the argument FOR a Supreme Being, or Creator of the Universe.

And if you follow his arguments, you will see that he has no trouble wedding science and religion together, as evidenced by the accepted age of the universe(13.7 billion years).

His first video is so in tune with what I have always believed that I wonder why I never put one exactly together as he has. Anyway, watch all of them and see if you can't appreciate the logic.

And if you don't, please explain why you don't.


PS: this is why I have never understood why Ayn Rand followers, including Pen Gillette, have always been so hostile to the concept of a Creator. And they have labeled themselves Objecionists. But I suppose that and "Objectiveist" are entirely different concepts.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#2
Aristotle beat Aquinas to the punch. That "first mover" thought was Aristotilian logic Aquinas agreed with and utilized. This debate is a good one and needed for the benefit of some atheists who are open minded.

For simple minded folks like myself, it isn't needed. If I had been raised by atheist parents, I would have lost that faith fairly early on. I can't look at the sky and imagine it made itself or is an accidental thing. That's just me, I know some folks are way deeper than I am.

Some dude wrote a book years back titled, "There is no God". Then years later, he wrote a book titled, "There is a God". NT Wright and he had some dialectic along these lines and the guy agreed with the basic view on video 1.
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#3
When I was very young, like most kids, I used to ask my parents how did the earth later on how the universe got started?. The answer was, God created them. For a while I was satisfied with that answer. After a while, I started asking how did God come into existence? My parents answer was, "God always existed". I was never satisfied with the answer. I remember my parents taking me to a few people who were supposedly were knowledgeable on the religious issues. I was never satisfied with their explanations, and when I questioned these answers, I was told that it was a sin to question existence of God.
Throughout my life, I keep asking these questions.
It seems like most atheist explained the existence of Universe as always being there, or as there was nothing and there was a big bang that created the universe. I was never satisfied with these answers.
When I asked similar questions from religious people about God, the answer seems to be that he always existed.
My understanding of these issues has not gotten any clearer since I was about 10 years old.
I guess my brain has no capacity to understand these issues, therefore I decided that I'm an agnostic.
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#4
(04-28-2013, 03:21 PM)Kamil Wrote: When I was very young, like most kids, I used to ask my parents how did the earth later on how the universe got started?. The answer was, God created them. For a while I was satisfied with that answer. After a while, I started asking how did God come into existence? My parents answer was, "God always existed". I was never satisfied with the answer. I remember my parents taking me to a few people who were supposedly were knowledgeable on the religious issues. I was never satisfied with their explanations, and when I questioned these answers, I was told that it was a sin to question existence of God.
Throughout my life, I keep asking these questions.
It seems like most atheist explained the existence of Universe as always being there, or as there was nothing and there was a big bang that created the universe. I was never satisfied with these answers.
When I asked similar questions from religious people about God, the answer seems to be that he always existed.
My understanding of these issues has not gotten any clearer since I was about 10 years old.
I guess my brain has no capacity to understand these issues, therefore I decided that I'm an agnostic.

I can well appreciate the 'agnostic' inclination. Its far more honest than the 'atheist' one, unless one is showing rebellion. Granted, there are so many unanswered questions.

But there has to be a beginning somewhere, and while it is definitely beyond my intellectual pay grade, I find it impossible to think that there is no higher order than my own.

Granted, a certain faith is necessary. But that faith must be accompanied by a healthy dose of 'logic' to act as the solid foundation for that faith. And that is why I don't fault 'deism' for their skepticism of organized religion.

If you haven't discovered your faith in a Creator, just keep looking. But don't give up logic.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#5
Kamil,

I think the actual "big bang" concept is scientific fact at this point. There was no material, then suddenly everything exploded into being roughly as we know it today.

It's way over my head, but, I think it's a view all scientists hold now.

BTW, I don't personally view questioning God as sinful or wrong. My view of God is He fully understands how small our minds are and knows many of us are curious beings, I'm like you.

I don't think it bothers Him at all, He probably is more disappointed when we ignore the possibilities involving Him as opposed to asking various questions.

I've wondered about 10,000 different questions in my days and I'm a believer since I was a teen.
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#6
Palladin Wrote:I think the actual "big bang" concept is scientific fact at this point.

it is more complicated than this. there are various theories in particular to deal with the problem of what caused the Big Bang (Act of Creation)... one of them for instance assumes multiple Big Bangs (branching of the universes). There is a popularization book by Mitchio Kaku (sp?) on this. Of course different models also imply different types of Creator(s).
Sodomia delenda est

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#7
The cause for sure would be a question for science, but, aren't they quite sure the universe came into being in a flash like that?
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#8
(04-29-2013, 01:32 AM)mv Wrote:
Palladin Wrote:I think the actual "big bang" concept is scientific fact at this point.

it is more complicated than this. there are various theories in particular to deal with the problem of what caused the Big Bang (Act of Creation)... one of them for instance assumes multiple Big Bangs (branching of the universes). There is a popularization book by Mitchio Kaku (sp?) on this. Of course different models also imply different types of Creator(s).

Don't know is you watched any of the videos provided in the link of my first post, but Dr. Peter Kreeft also discusses this in the top video. No matter how many 'big bangs' there are, there still must be a beginning somewhere, which again asks the question of 'How' this happened.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#9
Quote:Don't know is you watched any of the videos provided in the link of my first post

No, I intend to, but did not have time. (Actually it is in my "queue" but there are 20+ interesting Ancient Aliens movies there already S10 )
Sodomia delenda est

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#10
I know what you mean. However, this good doctor's argument is so logical and persuasive. He also does this low key as well. I just find anyone being able to watch it and not tend to concur with his reasoning. But that's just me of course.

Definitely a 'must watch' video. Too bad I cannot find it somewhere other than just on that particular link.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#11
John,

We believers know God is the first mover, but, science still could try and discern what technique or process started everything. There probably is a scientific "spark" somewhere to be discovered.

Like that "god particle" they talk about finding in the accelerator in Europe.
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#12
You do know that the "god particle" is the shortened form of the "goddamn particle"? S6

--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Par...uestion%3F
Sodomia delenda est

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#13
Perhaps, if somebody finds a way to describe different colors to a person who has been blind all his life, they could also explain to me how the universe started, and existence of God S1
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#14
Did you watch the first video of the link I posted at the start of the thread?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#15
(04-29-2013, 04:25 PM)John L Wrote: Did you watch the first video of the link I posted at the start of the thread?
Yes, actually I watched it a few times, and later I will watch it again along with the rest of the videos.
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#16
MV,

No, I didn't see that before. Heck, I have no clue what that boson is, just know it's an attempt to find why the universe got here technically.

John,

This is a great series, I'm just now watching them all. #4 technically I think deserves enhancement. Paul the Apostle is the reason I say this. There's a term in theology, "the beatific vision", seeing God in other words.

It transformed Paul from murderous tyrant to the most self sacrificial servant of God's. Unlike seeing various miracles, this transforms humanity permanently and there is no doubt left.



A friend of mine once said, "if I had the experience of Paul I'd be a believer, too"!


The great news is all humanity is going to have this "Paul" experience, I believe.

BTW, Frank Pastore got killed just months ago in a car wreck.
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#17
(04-29-2013, 08:24 PM)Palladin Wrote: MV,

No, I didn't see that before. Heck, I have no clue what that boson is, just know it's an attempt to find why the universe got here technically.

John,

This is a great series, I'm just now watching them all. #4 technically I think deserves enhancement. Paul the Apostle is the reason I say this. There's a term in theology, "the beatific vision", seeing God in other words.

It transformed Paul from murderous tyrant to the most self sacrificial servant of God's. Unlike seeing various miracles, this transforms humanity permanently and there is no doubt left.



A friend of mine once said, "if I had the experience of Paul I'd be a believer, too"!


The great news is all humanity is going to have this "Paul" experience, I believe.

BTW, Frank Pastore got killed just months ago in a car wreck.

What a shame. If I read Wiki correctly he was on a Honda motorcycle when a little lady ran him over. That's terrible.

That's one of the reasons why I walked away from my Honda 750CB in 1973 and never got on another motorcycle ever again. Too dangerous, and with my crazy adrenaline addiction, speeding over ninety down the highway was just too dangerous.


And yes, I hope there is more to this series, especially with Dr. Peter Kreeft on further ones. I really enjoy following his reasoning.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#18
After looking at the videos - 0ne observation jumped out at me, which may be relevant.

Comments are linked after the videos, to give viewers' input. The top opinions are generally pro-atheist, even if only 5 or eleven "likes" put them there. The total number of comments is hugely in favor of God being rational, but there are so many of them, that the "likes" are spread out with none gaining the particular interest of the counter-arguments.

Perhaps this is a microcosm of the whole debate. When pointed interests are narrowly held, they can be supported unanimously by those few in the same camp - while the majority may hold stronger arguments, but are diluted by sheer diversity.

Many people who consider themselves better educated are sold on disinformation that is the main buttress of their ideology. An example is the belief that Church is anti-science (which was debunked in the videos.) There are many in MENSA who think Columbus was prevented from exploring because the Church thought the Earth was flat. Tell them they are wrong and they dismiss the facts.
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#19
JohnL said:
"I have never understood why Ayn Rand followers, including Pen Gillette, have always been so hostile to the concept of a Creator. "

My take on this is that people who like complete (therefore amoral) freedom do not like the idea of God, because with that idea comes the ideas of morality and therefore restrictions on behavior. Right and wrong are defined. Why else would consummate egotists decide to disbelieve in God? Many religions have a large overlap in moral admonitions, which I find indicative of God's work.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#20
The primary role of God, besides being Creator, is being Judge. Those who wish to be a law unto themselves do not like the idea of having to answer to divine judgment.
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