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Japan China Confrontation? Japan's Navy Growing
#61
I believe what China is doing is casting a wide net on every possible victim, and just seeing who will blink first. Everyone is included, and nobody is left off the table.

Not sure who will wind up being the center of attention, from the PRC perspective. But to my thinking, Indonesia has the most to lose from all this. It is a country of islands, spread all over the place, and with many ethnic groupings. If China doesn't use this to fracture it, something else will. Indonesia is a prime candidate for this 21st century Global Paradox. Countries are in the process of downsizing and becoming more independent and representative of its citizens.

Of course the Duckbutt doesn't understand all this yet.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#62
Now others are also showing up and are complaining about China.

These are articles about India and HongKong.


http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/09...-ambitions

Abe and Modi agreed to work harder to launch a “two-plus-two” security consultative framework involving their foreign and defense ministers.

They also agreed to continue joint maritime exercises in addition to trilateral drills conducted with the United States on a regular basis.

Japan’s sovereignty has been challenged by China over the Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea, a group of uninhabited islets that are controlled by Japan but also claimed by China, which calls them Diaoyu, and by Taiwan, where they are known as Tiaoyutai.

For its part, India is becoming more concerned over China’s expanding presence in the Indian Ocean, and also ongoing border disputes in the Himalayan region.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/09...-democracy

HONG KONG – Hong Kong police used pepper spray to disperse prodemocracy activists on Monday as the Asian financial center braces for a wave of disruptive protests against China’s decision to rule out full democracy.

China’s National People’s Congress (NPC) Standing Committee set the stage for a political showdown on Sunday when it rejected democrats’ demands for the right to freely choose Hong Kong’s next leader in 2017, leading scores of protesters to take to the streets.

Scuffles broke out on Monday during a tense standoff at the entrance to a center where a senior Chinese official was explaining Beijing’s decision, prompting police to use pepper spray amid chaotic scenes inside and outside the venue.
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#63
(08-31-2014, 11:24 AM)John L Wrote: I believe what China is doing is casting a wide net on every possible victim, and just seeing who will blink first. Everyone is included, and nobody is left off the table.

It's really like that. Can you believe that? Even North Korea is mistrusting China, it is also reported that the entire border between China and North Korea is fortified in some news.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...order.html

North Korea has transferred one of its newest and most modern armoured units to the border with China, in the latest indication of the depth of the rift between the two erstwhile allies.
An estimated 80 tanks of the 12th Corps of the North Korean People’s Army have been reassigned to Ryanggang Province, the strategically important frontier region that shields North Korea’s east coast ports, including Wonsan.
South Korea’s Chosun Ilbo newspaper reported that no tank units had previously been stationed in the province and that the 12th Corps has been reinforced with an armoured infantry unit, artillery sections equipped with multiple rocket launchers and brigades trained to carry out “special warfare”.
.....
The reason for the transfer of front-line units away from the heavily fortified border with South Korea is the growing fear in Pyongyang that China, North Korea’s only significant ally, could be preparing to “betray” Mr Kim’s regime.
.....
North Korea has stepped up the construction of concrete machine-gun emplacements on the Chinese border, while propaganda has begun to describe Beijing as the North’s traditional enemy.
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#64
80 tanks--against the million-man Chinese army? I wonder how many tanks the Chinese have to throw at them--8,000?
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#65
(09-02-2014, 02:50 AM)Ron Lambert Wrote: 80 tanks--against the million-man Chinese army? I wonder how many tanks the Chinese have to throw at them--8,000?

Doesn't matter Ron. What's important is that Everyone is now expressing a lack of trust toward PRC.

But what really has me stumped is just what is meant with "newest and most modern" here. My imagination is running wild. S13
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#66
'The newest and most modern' ... at least North Korea has 'something' but countries like Philippines have nothing at all.

The only country which is able to stop any Chinese movement on sea is Japan, and the only country which is able to stop any Chinese movement on land is Russia.

EVERY DAY, 3 to 5 times, the Chinese AirForce and the Chinese Coastguard by ship, are entering Japanese waters but so far they always fail and are detected quickly and turn around, they are not into fightings but only into provoking and creating troubles. They are an annoyance but their movements have to be watched carefully.

Japan will not allow the Chinese to enter any uninhabited island and to start construction of housings, airports etc. as they are doing it in the SE China Sea next to Philippines and Vietnam.
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#67
Yohan, not meaning to throw a monkey wrench into all this, but after what Japan did to China before and during WWII, the Chinese will go out of their way to 'get even' in any way possible. I believe the old Persian proverb states that "Revenge tastes best when served cold." Japan might best remember this in the future. And no matter the horrors Mao and Crew did to their fellow countrymen, it is always the outsider, who is blamed the first and foremost.

And while Japan is now aligned differently, I can well understand Chinese anger. Japan has done much to change things, but they have not addressed these grievances as Germany has. They have shelved their shame, out of sight, and to many, out of mind.

My parents spent two tours of duty in Japan(I was there for the first one), and have many Japanese friends, some who have come here to visit. But not once has any of them ever mentioned Japan's imperial past. It is Verboten and until Japan really addresses this they are going to have to live with it far longer than they would like. Its just my opinion, but a well founded one.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#68
I agree with John.

Japan has avoided facing what they did in WWII, Germany faced their evil era and together as a people group agree it was the worst of bad and cannot ever occur again.

The reluctance of the leadership to simply "repent" to use a good old American Christian word demonstrates how reluctant the people are to hear of it. I suspect it has to do with Shinto culture.
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#69
It also means they have pride and are unwilling to be completely shaped by American policies.
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#70
(09-03-2014, 02:17 PM)Gunnen4u Wrote: It also means they have pride and are unwilling to be completely shaped by American policies.

Perhaps there is just a bit more than that to it all. Anyway Tait, we must all bow to your superior wisdom. S6
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#71
(09-03-2014, 09:36 AM)John L Wrote: Yohan, not meaning to throw a monkey wrench into all this, but after what Japan did to China before and during WWII, the Chinese will go out of their way to 'get even' in any way possible...

This remark is totally off topic, as this thread is about China threatening Japan and many other neighbors in 2014, this thread is NOT about WWII which was ending in 1945.

About Japan and China in WWII, both countries signed the 'Joint Communiqué of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People's Republic of China' in 1972, established diplomatic relations between Japan and the People's Republic of China, ending the diplomatic relation between Japan and Taiwan, it renounced any claim for war reparations from World War II.

Japan and PRC signed the 'Treaty of Peace and Friendship between Japan and the People's Republic of China' in 1978. To claim Japan did more or less nothing is not true, as this treaty came to a high price for Japan demanding huge investment into the PRC for developing its infrastucture like ports, airports, roads and similar projects. It also says however in return that any claim regarding WWII is settled.

WWII ended 1945, almost 70 years ago, and nobody in charge of WWII is alive now.

Japan is NOT responsible for the Korean War, not responsible what happened in China later on due to political mismanagement, also not responsible for other wars like Tibet, the Vietnam War, or Cambodia genocide etc. etc.

To compare Germany and Japan is also wrong, as I do not know anything about anti-semitism in Japan. In general many young Japanese have nothing to do anymore with religion, except to marry in a Shinto shrine and to buy a grave in a Buddhist temple.

It would be better to compare Germany with Russia, and from all what I know about WWII history from books the leadership of Russia was not much better than those of Germany at that time. However I really don't care, it happened even before I was born, and I am now clearly 60 over.

But, what has this all to do with this thread? Back to the topic, what shall Japan do now?

Not to spend any money for military anymore (and send all US troops paid with Japanese money home), to sponsor the (not so small) Japanese Communist Party and to open its borders to the Chinese Navy and Chinese AirForce or what?
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#72
(09-03-2014, 02:17 PM)Gunnen4u Wrote: It also means they have pride and are unwilling to be completely shaped by American policies.

Japan is clearly unwilling to participate with USA in war activity somewhere in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Somalia and do not ask me where else in this world. Japan is more concerned about what is going on next to its borders = the military threat of the PRC against all its neighbors.

This makes the difference, USA does not feel threatened by Chinese military at all, but all countries around China really do, of course also Japan.
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#73
Tait,



Japan's refusal to deal with their WWII era conduct was/is not counter to US policy. We never cared.

Probably didn't care about German repentance either, we wanted each state to be our boys against Stalin and gave them both special treatment, for example, Japan had a free trade deal before free trade was in vogue. We did all we could to keep both out of the USSR empire.

I guess their reluctance is pride. Not against us, just pride in saying "we were not wrong to make war".

It would be wise if they simply acknowledged where they messed up for their own good.

Their PM this year attended a Hachiman temple ceremony. He's their god of warriors. It's difficult for we westerners to grasp what that means to their neighbors.

Safe to say none are thrilled.
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#74
(09-03-2014, 06:42 PM)Palladin Wrote: Their PM this year attended a Hachiman temple ceremony.

About which shine are you talking?

Hachiman is a group of Shinto, and not a Buddhist temple.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/16/world/....html?_r=0

Quote:TOKYO — Prime Minister Shinzo Abe of Japan, hoping to appease conservative supporters without closing the door on a hoped-for summit meeting with China’s leader, refrained from visiting a controversial war shrine in Tokyo on Friday, the 69th anniversary of the end of World War II, sending a cash offering instead.

http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/

About the Yasukuni Shrine, it was founded around 1869, only a part of the listings of people related to war are of WWII. It is the shrine for ANY war where Japanese died. There are even foreigners enlisted there.

Many Japanese who lost a relative in any war (not only WWII), but also foreign visitors (including Chinese tourists ) - millions of them - going there as it is a major sightseeing place within Central Tokyo.

About the Koreans complaining, it is not the responsibility of Japan, that it is now a divided nation. They have to care about their own problems between North and South Korea and are totally unable to solve anything since decades. For the Korean War you might blame USA and China, but surely not Japan, which did not have any military force at that time.

It's somewhat a 'fashion trend' in Asia to blame Japan for all and everything if something is going wrong in that region - somewhat similar to USA, which is blamed for anything which happens in Muslim countries.
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#75
(09-03-2014, 04:39 PM)yohan Wrote: This remark is totally off topic, as this thread is about China threatening Japan and many other neighbors in 2014, this thread is NOT about WWII which was ending in 1945.

Yohan, actually it is not off topic. Its something that I am trying to remind you as having never been put to bed, so to speak. This is what China has been seething about, under the sheets, for decades now. And they will be using this as their excuse for eventual action. Like it or not, this is something that has not been properly laid to rest. I'm sorry, but its there.

I'll give you an example. I'm a Southerner here in the US. And for over a century there was seething resentment about how the South was treated after the Civil War. It was called Reconstruction, and it was a whole lot more than today's 'so called' benevolent Yankee victors would have you believe. And the South has not forgotten it, even after 150 years.

There used to be a pair of pictures, showing two old soldiers holding their respective flags. The old Union Koot was saying "Forget it!" But the old Southern Koot kept saying "Forget Hell!" And this was a huge thing back in the 1950s and 1960s when I was growing up.

Here's a shot of an existing license plate.

[Image: th?id=HN.608007313133208295&pid=15.1&P=0]

They are actually still around, believe it or not. And in the meantime the South has been economically beating the socks off the North for some decades now. And it is the North that is dearly hurting, much to the eternal satisfaction of we Southerners.

My point is that this is not going to go away, no matter how much one can say that it is "Off Topic". China would not hesitate to pull a "Rape of Yokohama", if given the chance. It would be a horrible thing, but beyond the barbarity some leaders in PRC would be willing to allow behind their backs.

Japan had better prepare for such things in the future. General Douglas MacArthur really dropped the ball over not forcing post WWII Japan to come publicly to grips with this. I'm serious as a heart attack here.

Hey look, I have an awful lot of fond memories of my year spent in Nara and Osaka. So I have no axe to grind here. But this one thing has been festering for decades now, and sooner or later it is going to come back to haunt not just Japan, but the entire area.

Just food for thought.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#76
Y,

Hachiman of the Shinto pantheon.
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#77
(09-03-2014, 08:32 PM)Palladin Wrote: Y, Hachiman of the Shinto pantheon.

I do not really understand what you mean.

Hachiman in Shinto mythology is the guardian of fishermen, farmers and soldiers in Japan and especially in rural Japan there are maybe 20000 shrines (with Shinto priests) and maybe 100.000 shrines (without staff) dedicated to this popular 'guardian angel'.

Is the Yasukuni Shrine related to Hachiman Shrine group? I do not think so - it is dedicates solely to people (including foreigners) who died in any Japanese related wars (not only WWII) while supporting Japan.

What is the problem? Are US politicians not visiting churches for prayers or donating something (money or otherwise contributions) to their church? Do they avoid to mention Arlington National Cemetery because some Arabs, Afghanis, Pakistanis, Iranians etc. do consider US-related soldiers who are buried there as 'war criminals'?

Around July/August every year many Japanese are visiting the shrines and temples to be with their deceased relatives usually in the place where they were born. (called 'Obon')

Might be that hard-liner communists in China and North Korea do not like to talk about religion, but what Japanese are doing in Japan in their Japanese temples (paid out solely of private donations, no public money is used for religion in Japan) is not their business anyway.

With the same argument you might claim Muslims are right if they are complaining about Christian-orientated politicians in USA or in UK and asking why they are going to the church.
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#78
Y,

I was accessing this data after reading the PM visited the "war god" temple a while back:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hachiman

Of course US pols use Christian worship places for their money grubbing enterprises, that's different from a Japanese pol showing reverence to the Shinto god of warriors after the WWII debacle I should think.

IF we Americans had a fully developed pantheon and among them was a "god of slavery", it would pretty obtuse if a US pol visited that shrine after our civil war don't you think?

Wouldn't that demonstrate that politician supported slavery and that he assumed the people at least secretly wanted it as well?

What if Germany was into pantheism/polytheism, would I be wrong to wonder about the German PM visiting their "god of warriors"?
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#79
A shrine or temple is not a pantheon. It is similar to a church or mosque.

As said already before, Hachiman is not the god of war in Shinto belief, but it is similar in Christianity, something like the guardian angel of fishermen, farmers and soldiers, for sure Hachiman is not only about war.

About Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples, Japanese people visiting them similar to churches and graveyards in countries of Christianity, as the name of the relative, friend etc. is listed in the shrine tablets or the bones are kept within the grounds of the Buddhist temple.

Hachiman refers to the Japanese emperor Ojin of the 5th century, what has this all to do with WWII?

Big Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples are often also visited merely for sightseeing not only by Japanese but by foreigners as well.

I wonder if you can find any reference when and where the Japanese prime minister was visiting Yasukuni Shrine or any Hachiman shrine in official duty this year?

Maybe it was another minister, but not the prime minister. Anyway I think and it is up to them to visit such shrines for family reasons as a private person.

According to your interpretation of Japanese Buddhism/Shintoism,
Japanese should not visit the Yasukuni Shrine. Too nationalistic.
Japanese should not visit any Hachiman Shrine either. Too nationalistic.

The question is what is next?

What about the other Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples, like Reiyukai?

In general, all forms of Buddhism/Shinto developed in Japan are nationalistic orientated.

About Obon and visiting shrines and temples, especially during August, this is the usual way Japanese are living, their culture.

Quote:(from Wikipedia, Buddhism in Japan)
Obon
Though its date and practices vary region to region, the Buddhist Obon festival is celebrated primarily in Japan and in communities with large Japanese diaspora communities. It is believed that the spirits of the dead return to earth for three days and visit the family shrines or graves. Similar to Mexico's Day of the Dead, it is customary to clean the graves and to hold family reunions.

This talk about shrines and temples in Japan is only done by Communist China to instigate annoyances. Worthless political talk about nothing.

Communist China is not happy about Christians either, and there are many underground churches in all China, it is not only about Japanese Buddhism/Shintoism.
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#80
(09-04-2014, 12:11 PM)yohan Wrote: Communist China is not happy about Christians either, and there are many underground churches in all China, it is not only about Japanese Buddhism/Shintoism.

This could be Japan's, and the rest of Asia, big saving grace in the long run, because China is on the way to becoming the world's largest Christian nation. And while we humans tend to be..........well, human, Christianity stresses tolerance, love, and forgiveness. I predict that it is going to be the one big saving grace for China.

We discuss this movement on another thread, Chinese Christians are converting by the Millions! The late Jack Wheeler first got me interested in this mass movement. And its something the PRC leadership is unable to halt. If you haven't been following it, you may find some of the information on that thread enlightening.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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