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Interesting Discoveries Concerning Jesus
#61
Fred,

For accuracy sake, the earthquake in this article cannot be narrowed down like the original title suggested. It could have happened anywhere within a decade era.

MV,

Peter probably did not know of the 4 written canonical gospels if the researchers are accurate, he likely died in 66 AD and I think most folks see Mark as around 68-69 AD.

Luke alluded to previous writings about Jesus and it is not clear if this was an allusion to Mark or a script we just don't have. Most researchers buy the "Q" document theory. I don't know much about that honestly.

BTW, if you read John when the trials of Jesus start, you'll see the writer( and Peter later in Acts) held the sanhedrin culpable, not so much Pilate.

He really had no alternative after he was threatened with the idea that, "Caesar won't take kindly to you allowing another king down here"! Those are my words, it's close to the account.

Herod the great in the bible comes over just like he does with Josephus and Augustus, low life thug whose pigs were safer than his family.
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#62
You can choose between the Q theory, or the possibility that there was an oral tradition that the synoptic guys followed, while John and Peter did not.

Quote:Peter probably did not know of the 4 written canonical gospels

Then you complain about Peter's inaction is not fair. Dead people rarely object to erroneous narratives. S6

And if you want to be materialistic, simply replace the eclipse by dark clouds, and the earthquake by a thunderstorm; this will fit the gospels descriptions just fine, and clouds obviously link with thunderstorms!
Sodomia delenda est

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#63
MV,

Oral tradition is still big in the region, but, I think there is evidence of a written document that we don't have now. Luke not only alluded to one, Paul apparently used one for some commentary.
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#64
Palladin, what about this:
Earthquake + Eclipse + Storm + Meteor Rain?
Poker!
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#65
(08-25-2012, 06:13 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: Earthquake + Eclipse + Storm + Meteor Rain?
Are we confusing the crucifixion with the Armageddon? S6
Sodomia delenda est

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#66
No. Extraordinary natural events in crucifiction lasts a few hours (one day at most) to mark the event precisely at the time of passing. It's a warning to the unbelievers.

Armagedon is permanent and irreversible and retributive destruction.
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#67
Fred,

Most Christians(not USA based fundy Prots) think "armagedon" was 70 AD Jerusalem. I do myself.
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#68
Most Christians certainly do not think that. Have you taken a survey? Does majority vote have any impact in determining what is the truth, even if the majority did believe such an explicitly unscriptural view? John who wrote Revelation lived AFTER 70 AD (most scholars believe the book was written around 90 to 100 A.D.), and Revelation 16:16 speaks of Armageddon as yet being future, clearly in the end of time. You have been listening to some very poor scholars who clearly do not believe in the divine inspiration of the Bible. Do you want to reject faith in God? Intellectual honestly certainly does not require you to do so.
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#69
The most likely truth is that Armageddon was meant to be the destruction of Rome. That is what is the thinking of mainstream Christian scholars. Not fundamentalist Christianity, which is not really a majority. It just looks that way because they are the loudest.
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#70
Which destruction of Rome? When the barbarians finally swept through the streets of Rome? Or when Nero had parts of the city burned (and blamed on the Christians)? Palladin was talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Since Rome still exists, and was the capital of the "Holy Roman Empire" throughout the Dark Ages (which persecuted the real Christians in the Piedmont mountain valleys, and suffocated the souls of all people in Europe with its religious totalitarianism), and is taken as a symbol in Revelation of the unholy alliance between the threefold powers of apostasy in the actual end of world history (see Rev. 16:13, 19), it would be truly ignorant to claim that Armageddon has already happened.
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#71
Sigh,..............John was talking about the future destruction of Rome.

I'm violating my first rule here at Ai-Jane, and that one is trying to discuss religion with you Ron. You are beyond reason, just like the hardest hearted Collectivist about Socialism. Its a waste of my time.

So, please forget I ever posted above, ok? I'll leave Patrick to keep up with you, because I have neither the time, nor inclination. You are generally a half way reasonable person until you start throwing out your rigid fundamentalism. Please, forget that I had a weak moment, and posted.
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#72
Why is it rigid to go by Scripture? Show me where I use Scripture wrongly.
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#73
Ron,

No one on earth believed the dispensationalist stuff the US Prots do until 1880. A Brit named Darby dreamed all that up.

The "great tribulation" happened during the lives of the people hearing Jesus, He said so. If you study ancient church history, they knew the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD was validation for Christ's authenticity as Jesus had openly judged Jerusalem and pronounced how the judgment would work, Josephus documented it for us.

It's almost eerie to read Matthew 23-24 and Josephus' "The Jewish War".
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#74
[Image: 16003120_10212209130413120_7454789580889...e=5922964C]
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#75
Darby was never accepted by the majority of Protestants. He is responsible for the Secret Rapture nonsense.

It is true many of the apostles expected Christ would come soon, thinking the prophecy of the 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24-27 was about to end in another three or four years. But eventually they realized that there would be a delay, because the chosen people did not accept their Messiah. Many years later, the Apostle Paul clearly recognized that there was going to be a lengthy delay, when he wrote to the Christians at Thessalonica:
Quote:"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; NASB)
Protestants have always taken this as being a prediction that the Papacy would come to pervert Christianity and demonstrate the sinfulness of human nature even when trying to be devoutly religious, even claiming to be Christian. The papal error in exalting men in the place of Christ was certainly not unique. Every denomination (including my own) exhibits some of that spirit. Many Christians make the deadly mistake of worshiping their church; not perceiving that in so doing, they are worshiping themselves.

In what Paul said, he was clearly borrowing from the prophecy of Daniel 11:36, 37--which comes two verses before the prophecy goes on to describe what would happen in the time of the end, beginning in verse 40.

You can run into trouble when you take isolated passages out of context, and do not consider all that is said. Even the apostles were not free of being mistaken about some things; they were not perfect or omniscient. They still needed continually to grow and develop in their understanding. Even the prophets of the Old Testament did not always understand what they wrote under inspiration, as the Apostle Peter said:
Quote:"Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things which angels desire to look into." (1 Peter 1:10-12; NKJV)

In Matthew 24, Jesus was answering a twofold question. His disciples had asked Him about the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, and the end of the world--thinking that the two were the same. Jesus answered their questions about both--some of what He said had to do with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, and some had to do with the final end of the world. The Lord leaves it up to us to learn the wisdom to differentiate the two. The clues are there in the text; we do not have to guess. But there is need for "rightly dividing the Word of Truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)

Most Christians recognize that what Jesus predicted in Matthew 24 had in fact a dual application; some things that would be true of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple will also be true of the end of the world. Thus we can learn what is to come in our future from what came to pass in 70 A.D. The situations are parallel. Such as when Jesus said that when the times comes to flee, Christians should pray that their flight "be not in winter or on the Sabbath day." It is instructive to look at the whole passage:
Quote:"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that , if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." (Matthew 24:20-27)

Notice that Jesus said it would be important to pray that the time when they had to flee would not be on the Sabbath, even in 70 A.D., nor as Most Christians now understand, in the final conflict in the end of the world. So the Sabbath was never done away with; it would still matter almost 40 years after Christ's Crucifixion, and even in the end of time. Also many of the signs mentioned in that prophecy have not yet happened, especially the last sentence, which tells us that the Second Coming of Christ will in no way be secret, but will be like the lightning shining from the east to the west.
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