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Interesting Discoveries Concerning Jesus
#21
The one big scientific truth is that existence starts at highest complexity and moves toward the energy death of the universe. Entropy is as sure as bread always falls butter-side down. ...Well, entropy and Murphy.
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#22
By the way Quadrat, it seems from what you said earlier that your real objection to the idea of Intelligent Design is that you don't want to have to submit to religious tyranny. Religious tyranny is a great evil, and has stained red the pages of history. But that was a tyranny of human beings, using religion as a means for trying to control other people and make them subservient to the religious system that is in power. God is not a tyrant. If He were, we would all be dead. God gave us Christ, for our forgiveness, deliverance, and restoration to fellowship with Him. The enemy of God gave us religious tyranny by hijacking the church. That religious tyranny is in fact opposed to God, and is labeled by God in His Word, "Antichrist." The Greek preposition anti means "in place of." The Antichrist opposes God by trying to replace His Christ and establish a system of religious tyranny over all of us humans. Giving our alliegience to God as our Creator and Redeemer is the answer to religious tyranny. The way of Christ is the way of freedom. Even the Ten Commandments are referred to by the Apostle James as "the perfect law of liberty." (James 1:25; 2:12) God gives us the freedom to be overcomers of sin and evil, as defined by the Law.

Some people imagine freedom to be like sitting down at the piano and being able to play. But if they do that, all they can do is pound out noises. If, on the other hand, one learns the discipline of playing a piano, then indeed he can sit down at the piano and play with great freedom, making real music, even while improvising. That is the freedom God wants to give you, and offers to all of us.
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#23
(05-30-2012, 04:19 PM)WmLambert Wrote: The one big scientific truth is that existence starts at highest complexity and moves toward the energy death of the universe. Entropy is as sure as bread always falls butter-side down. ...Well, entropy and Murphy.

Well, it started with hydrogen only, and all other elements were manufactured in stars. That's as simple as it gets.

Ron, there is no way to escape organized religion when you succumb to the ideas of supernatural stuff. You get sucked in, herded, exploited, used the way the organisation sees fit. It's designed this way.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#24
It did not start with hydrogen only...because where did the hydrogen come from?

Physics is inexorable. Complex to simple. Show an example from real life that counters that. Conjecture that hydrogen was there at the beginning is as simplistic as saying Zeus was there first. If hydrogen is all that matters in stars - what about gravity?
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#25
Before hydrogen, there was a pretty hot quark-gluon soup of quantum particles. Don't ask where they come from, because they pop up out of nothing and vanish again all the time, so it's easy to conclude that a whole universe does the same on the largest scale we can observe, what's beyond it, the theorized multiverse, we can't at present.
The soup cooled down, protons formed, and bonded with electrons. There was hydrogen. What about gravity? It's a feature of mass and space. It simply is there. How comes you take God who must be more complex than the universe for granted, but marvel at gravity?
So the universe went from hydrogen which is the simplest form of proper matter, too our brains as the most complex one known to us. I have no idea why this all should be difficult to understand, and where the mental aid god is needed.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#26
Really Quadrat, who made the soup?

You want to say that the problem of existence is solved by things popping in and out of existence all the time. Well, how did that get started? You are still saying that "In the beginning there was nothing, and then suddenly nothing exploded and became everything." It is ironic that atheists like to pride themselves on their logic!
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#27
It doesn't sound right when you phrase it, but look at the alternative. A generation ago you would have said everything is fixed and nothing changes, wouldn't you? The stars, earth, life. All created perfectly because purposefully. And now we know about plate tectonics and that not the good lord pushes them around, and the amazing phases earth went trough millions and billions of years ago when it was a very different place. We understand how evolution adapts life to changes, the life cycles of stars, how planets form. You don't need him to explain any of it. There is such a wealth of information available, why be content with religion?

The question is not who created the universe, 13.7bln years ago, Ron. It is more where is your god now? There is a major ideological difference between the assumption that god created the laws of nature, and that he's ever present reading your thoughts, judging you, expecting woshipping. I'm afraid you're not after the answer were the universe comes from, but you want people run their lives according to the good book.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#28
I wouldn't have said that everything is fixed and nothing changes, ever. Solomon in the Bible says that things change, and yet the same things come around again and again. He said there is a time for war, and a time for peace, a time to work and a time to cease from working, a time to sew and a time to reap. The Bible also says "Time and chance happen to them all." These are consequences of the separation between God and man that has resulted from our doubting of God, which led to rebelling against Him, which is the essence of sin.

Plate tectonics are the leftover result of the global Flood of Genesis, which was apparently caused by an immense bombardment of earth by the equivalent of a shotgun blast of cometary and asteroidal bodies, sufficient to break up the entire crust of the earth. This triggered fountains of water from what had been vast underground reservoirs filled with water, and also precipitated down the water layer (in some form) that originally had been in place above the atmosphere.

And for the record, God created the earth's biosphere about six thousand years ago, and the solar system and the rest of the universe only about 12,000 years ago. There is abundant evidence of these things, if you will just stop ignoring it.
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#29
Yes I will ignore because it's so silly. Salomon describes events in the span of a human life, god told him nothing about deep time. Plate tectonics are a leftover of the flood? That's ridiculous. A little water over the land certainly exerts some pressure on the crust but not in 40 or so days, not that much, and the crust would move one way only, vertically. Gravity, ask Bill. Plate tectonics is horizontal movement, and it doesn't matter whether an ocean or mountain range is on top.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#30
No, plate tectonics is mostly a vertical movement - propagated along a path of least resistance - which means massive horizontal movement occurs with some mountains folding up and huge plates slipping under and over each other. When mountains rise, do the Alps move to the Rockies? Volcanism and plates are all in the same soup kettle, aren't they?

BTW, It is the physical laws of the universe that must precede the things mentioned, neh?
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#31
(05-30-2012, 04:19 PM)WmLambert Wrote: The one big scientific truth is that existence starts at highest complexity and moves toward the energy death of the universe. Entropy is as sure as bread always falls butter-side down. ...Well, entropy and Murphy.

You probably had a lecture on Boltzmann who invented the equation on entropy, stating that nature has the tendency to move towards increasing disorder. The strange thing is that the laws of physics don't back entropy because they don't distinguish between past and future, so it should also increase backwards. If we look back to the start, the universe was very uniform shortly after the big bang, but entropy created complexity, and the conditions for life at least here. Life itself counteracts entropy, turning unorganized matter into highly organized one. Humans do the same by technology.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#32
The physics is simple. Energy has inertia and vibration, speed, and potential diminish over time. Going backwards doesn't change that, neh!

Increasing disorder doesn't mean more stuff - it means less stuff.
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#33
Q said:
"You probably had a lecture on Boltzmann who invented the equation on entropy, stating that nature has the tendency to move towards increasing disorder. The strange thing is that the laws of physics don't back entropy because they don't distinguish between past and future, so it should also increase backwards. If we look back to the start, the universe was very uniform shortly after the big bang, but entropy created complexity, and the conditions for life at least here. Life itself counteracts entropy, turning unorganized matter into highly organized one. Humans do the same by technology. "

Clausius invented entropy in the 1850's, based on classical thermodynamics. Statistical Mechanics gave a way to understand more what entropy is. It did not invent entropy.

The rules of physics postulate future (positive time from now) and
the past (negative time from now). Of course one may set the zero point of time arbitrarily.

Some backward time calculations cannot be done numerically, if they involve diffusion equations. This means that it is not possible to extrapolate back from now to the big band numerically. The presumptions about that moment can only follow from informed speculation.

Life temporarily organizes matter and energy (which seems to contradict entropy), but all living things die, ending the organization, and increasing entropy.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#34
Quad,

I think the more complex something is, the more likely it has a creative intellect involved with it.
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#35
The more complex technology we invent, the more prone it is to failure. It requires maintenance in any case. Yes I know, one feature of the good lord is infallibillity. However, where is the divine technician who keeps things running smoothly, and is according to the bible a humanoid?

The Alps are a really beautiful mountain range. I doubt you or I could create something like it, so elaborate, as pure chance and simple laws did.

jt,
what do you mean by all living things die? They are recycled for new life. Or did you mean in a zillion years it'll all be gone? No clear and present danger for us, why care?
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#36
(05-31-2012, 10:47 AM)Ron Lambert Wrote: And for the record, God created the earth's biosphere about six thousand years ago, and the solar system and the rest of the universe only about 12,000 years ago. There is abundant evidence of these things, if you will just stop ignoring it.

So what's wrong when we say the Andromeda galaxy is 2,5 million lightyears from our place, and we can determine this by a special sort of stars whose brigthness reveals their distance. Therefore, Andromeda must have been there at least 2,5 million years ago. What's wrong here? The speed of light? Did it travel faster before the flood?
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#37
Quadrat, it has been shown in the laboratory that the rate of radioactive decay can increase over a trillionfold when matter is heated to the plasma state. Since the speed of light in a vacuum is part of the equation that governs radioactive decay, this implies that at some point the speed of light may have been different--such as during the earliest moment of the universe, when matter and energy both exploded into existence. However He may have done it, the Creator clearly intended the universe to be light, not dark, from one end to the other. Just as He created the trees of Eden with apparent age, so He created a universe where the light from the most distant stars had already reached everywhere. As for the Cepheid variables used to give a rough estimate of distances, these are based on several assumptions, any one of which may be wrong.

I have already cited a number of hard, physical evidences that indicate a relatively young age for the universe. They may be ignored by evolutionist diehards, but that does not make the evidence go away. Nor does any amount of verbal hand-waving make the immense complexity of the organization of the universe from the macroscopic to the microscopic any less impossible to explain without recognizing that it had to have been guided (and still currently maintained) by an Intelligence that ordained all physical laws and enforces them, so that they do not change spontaneously from moment to moment.

You live in God's universe, whether you like it or not. Apart from Him there is no existence.
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#38
Quad,

Yes, you're right. So how does the universe continue like clockwork w/o a creator and controller/operator? It's all moving up there and as I understand it, milky ways are flying away from each other at tremendous speeds.

W/O control wouldn't everything start colliding?
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#39
Things do collide... but they are just so far apart that it is unusual.
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#40
True, what I meant though is stuff gets out of control bad.

Everything is moving in nice seemingly predictable courses. Only burned out stars go crazy.

Why would atomic particles have such beautiful little orbits with their electrons accidentally? Nothing we know makes any sense as accidentally being there and working.

It's just an accident that this specific planet can support human life of all those we can study and just an accident our sun is right where it is, etc.

IMO, if this did not involve God, no one would be so willfully stupid as to make such statements as Quad does.

Even Richard Dawkins admits their is design to the universe and that a god or gods may have created it, just can't be the Christian God. That's what this is about.


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