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Noah's Ark Found In Turkey?
#61
Ron,

I take issue with the view that the Bible infers we have a young earth. It infers we have a young humanity,but,exegesis of Gen 1:1-3 coupled with a specific verse in Isaiah teaches the earth is of indeterminate age.

God created the earth,the earth "became" chaotic,He restored it in 3. No way for us to know the time span between verse 1 and 3.

As our English reads,you would think God created the earth in chaos,God doesn't create anything that way though.

If you disagree with this view,no problem,but,it represents an exegetical/philology difference that deserves consideration.

The Hebrew verbs for create(there are 3 used in those verses) are utilized in those 3 verses in seperate ways and Isaiah tells us that God did NOT create the earth in chaos as the traditional English Bible indicates.
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#62
Palladin, I have maintained all along that the physical earth and the universe ARE OLDER than the earth's biosphere. Creation Week involved the creation of living things on earth. In an earlier post, I noted Hebrews 9:11, which says that the Heavenly tabernacle or sanctuary was "not of this creation," as it reads in the NKJV. Thus there was a creation prior to the creation of life on earth. I believe the angels were also a part of that prior creation, since they were present to sing together when the foundations of the earth were being laid (see Job 38:7). Also intelligent beings, other "Adams" of other races, were part of that prior creation, since they were present to shout for joy when the foundations of the earth were being laid (see again Job 38:7).

I'm not sure what you are trying to contend about God not creating the earth in a state of chaos. Genesis 1:2 says the earth "was without form and void" at the point when God began Creation Week. The same verse also said "The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters," so something was there! Waters were there. It actually sounds like the earth began as an ocean planet. Then God put some of the waters above the atmosphere (somehow), and put many of the waters underground, so dry land could appear.

But that said, I do not concede any need to accept the notion that the physical earth and the universe are billions of years old. I believe it is most reasonable, all things considered, to assume the physical earth and universe are around ten to twelve thousand years old. Life on earth is somewhere around six thousand years old--could be as much as 7,500 years old, max.

In Genesis 1:16, the statement that God "made the stars also," I see as a parenthetical insertion, in case anyone might wonder whether God made the stars as well as life on the earth. He did, but not at the same time. The stars also were part of a prior creation.

Also, the "greater" and "lesser light" of verse 16 may not have referred to the sun and moon, but rather to the bright glow that came through the translucence of the waters above the atmosphere. The lesser light would be the pearly glow caused by the translucent effect on the night side. The sun and moon are not mentioned in Genesis chapter one. Only "lights." The narrative is relating what was visible from the surface of the earth.
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#63
Ron,

My point is our English Bibles all say "was void" and properly it should say "became void".

That's my entire point. There is no given timetable from the "void" or "chaos" of verse 2 from the completed perfect creation of verse 1 and none from verse 2 chaos to verse 3 restoration.

It may have been 1 second or 1 trillion years,we are not given any idea.

In English,you would think God created a flawed earth,then in linear thinking said to Himself,"Gee,I'll fix what I screwed up in verse 2 by hoovering My spirit over the earth now".

That isn't what the Hebrew says and Isaiah used one of the Hebrew verbs for created to insist that this is an accurate rendering.

Isaiah said God did NOT create the earth in chaos,yet our English says He did,then He fixed the chaos He created,which is really nonsense if you think about it. We should know that is a poor way of rendering what Moses meant.
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#64
your founding fathers who created america on the principle of secularism must be spinning in their graves, their nation is 250 years later populated by christian lunatics trying to outdo each other in faith to a bullshit delusion. you are a disgrace.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#65
Quad,

Well,I am sorry I have so disappointed your high expectations!

I like the way our forefathers set up the nation,private conduct such as Ron and I are discussing was not within their purview nor should it have been.

You communists enjoyed harrassing folks like me,what handful existed in Germany anyway.
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#66
The Founding Fathers did not create America based on secularism. It was created to protect and nurture the various religions that were so important to them. The idea was to protect religion so it would prosper and to stop government from squashing it by creating a singular state religion.

Creating a state requirement of atheism is the same as a State religion.
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#67
Palladin Wrote:Quad,

Well,I am sorry I have so disappointed your high expectations!

I like the way our forefathers set up the nation,private conduct such as Ron and I are discussing was not within their purview nor should it have been.

You communists enjoyed harrassing folks like me,what handful existed in Germany anyway.
not harassing, but ridiculing. did not jefferson say something on that matter?

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#68
According to some scientists, this Noah's Ark is just a hoax. It's not really a new discovery, it was investigated several years ago. This just may be the latest iteration with more old wood trucked in by Kurdish scammers in the Summer to be photographed in the winter, with ice and snow making it appear deeply buried.
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#69
It is quite unlikely Jefferson said such a thing that would have been documented since it's likely 95% of the people he needed votes from were believers like myself in 1802.

I guess we can start making up statements,I'll do a few now:

"I was just kidding about Marxism in my books,this is probably the worst idea on earth,this was a joke guys". Karl Marx

"Of course we messed up everything,we ruined our economy and spent 60 years licking Moscow's as.s as a people"

Erich Honecker
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#70
not really. the pollution of politics, everything in fact by the christian religion in america, in particular the conservative party, is still a new phenomena. as recently as 1981 a politican as staunchly a conservative as goldwater stated,

"On religious issues there can be little or no compromise. There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both.
I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C" and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me?
And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism."

but thanks for underlining my point.

goldwater also said, "When you say "radical right" today, I think of these moneymaking ventures by fellows like Pat Robertson and others who are trying to take the Republican Party away from the Republican Party, and make a religious organization out of it. If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye."

now the same robertson said "The Antichrist is probably a Jew alive in Israel today." can you imagine?
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#71
Pallidan--
I just discovered that King James, who played a hand in commissioning the translation of the bible into a English one, was actually engaged in "witchcraft" as seeing he had a deep fascination for the supernatural.

In fact King James apparently repealed the laws against witches in England at the time, due to his fascination with them.

and well, in some pagan religions the earth was born out of chaos, etc.
So could that be a reason why the English one read that way, because he and the people writing the English translation was influenced by that somewhat?

I also discovered that he was actually bisexual.....which makes it all the more ironic that the King James version would have so much venom against homosexuals, witches and the like.

As opposed to the Hebrew/Greek version, which was mostly neutral on those subjects with a few notable exceptions in which an suspected homosexual, witch or whatever was doing something bad like murdering/raping somebody.
Which suggests that God is actually neutral on those subjects, unless they were doing something outrageous that did much more damage than the "minor sins" could ever do.

Which kind of makes me trust the English versions even less, because it almost seems as if the priests were simply beefing up a story for shock value, to "scare 'em straight". (no pun intended). they could also have tampered with the stories during the translation process, to subtly throw in a few pagan influences... like King James may have done.

Hey, he had the power and the money that could easily influence mere mortals to do something they normally wouldn't do otherwise.
Quote: “A society that puts equality… ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality or freedom…a society that puts freedom first will, as a happy by-product, end up with both greater freedom and greater equality.” --Milton Friedman
relax. it's only the internet!
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#72
AM,

It isn't just various English translations,the original texts on both testaments are consistent.

Try a German Bible,try a Russki one,maybe an Arabic translation or Syriac version.

Sex outside of marriage is condemned in the Bible,period.

Gay,straight,doesn't matter. You'll have to find another religion to support non married folks having sex together.

Quad,

If it tires you,why do you pay attention to it? I don't pay attention to Islamic polemics or Marxist discussions. How hard is it to ignore something or someone?

I find it easy.
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#73
I cannot believe we have managed to get four pages out of this thread. Isn't that great? S2
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#74
An amazing 4 pages and I haven't posted once in this thread!


Oops.

Never mind.

Wink1
I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!
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#75
William,

I think anytime someone says they found a piece of wood on land from 5000 years back,they're probably full of bad stuff.
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#76
Palladin, I think depending on the geographical or under ground location of the wood, 5000 years is very feasible.
Isn't the coal that we burn fossilized wood that millions of years old?
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#77
Kamil is correct. But the conditions must be conducive of preservation. High altitudes are one such condition, just as peat bogs are also.

In the last few years ancient Roman ships have been discovered at the ancient port of Ostia, which was the official seaport for the capital. Entire ship frames are being found. So, it is more than possible for wood to be found, which dates back in time.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#78
Palladin Wrote:Sex outside of marriage is condemned in the Bible,period.

that's true, but people like to believe that being gay alone is even a bigger sin than non-marital sex is.
As if being attracted to people of the same sex gets you a free pass to hell when there's other people out there far worse than gay people.

nah, the truth is that the original texts in Greek and Hebrew have always been mostly neutral towards people of all colors, sexuality, etc.... unless they happened to be murdering or raping people and profaning against god.

yes, they do state that sex out of marriage is bad, for many obvious reasons. But if those gays were married to each other, then they wouldn't be much of an sinner anymore according to the bible.
But, some folks out there would still see them as sinners regardless. ah well.

But enough of that. :p wouldn't want the topic to derail too much, would we?
Quote: “A society that puts equality… ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality or freedom…a society that puts freedom first will, as a happy by-product, end up with both greater freedom and greater equality.” --Milton Friedman
relax. it's only the internet!
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#79
Kamil and John,

Coal is a product of being in that heat and pressure,the ark on top of a mountain is exposed to fairly quick decomposition unless it was buried in an ice pack since whenever.


AM,

There is nothing in the Bible indicating a gay person is "bad" relative to a straight person. Anyone who says so is a liar or just innocently ignorant(probably 99% of the problem).


It's about how we think and how we conduct ourselves and treat folks,not what lusts we all have,all humanity has bad lusts,I know I sure do.

BTW,if I was gay,I promise I would have had gay sex,I'm not acting self righteous here. I've made as many errors as anyone.

Unfortunately,there are some Christians who have non Biblical views of gay sex(and all other issues),some say 1)it's not a sin(the liberal Christian who would also say straight sex is not a sin if you "love the other") while some say 2)gay folks are exempt from God's Grace(the judgmental fundy conservative).

I am in neither camp.

1)It is wrong to have sex outside of marriage,gay or straight.

2)God's Grace is extended to all humanity to include gay or straight.

"Whosoever" means whosoever.

Of the 2 errors,error #2 is 1 trillion X the worse error than #1.

I waste time debating this gay issue a lot,but,the mistake of thinking gay sex isn't a sin is just a mistake,the mistake of claiming a gay human cannot fall into God's Grace is so egregiously wrong because it is sacrilege against God's character,the finished work of Christ on the cross and even worse,it drives a gay human from Christ.

We Christians cannot make worse errors than that. That's where I stand on all people,gay or straight.
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#80
Which is all related to a piece of wood from a supposed giant behemoth of a ship that carried a ton of animals and crap.
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