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Noah's Ark Found In Turkey?
#21
The alternative theory created by many Christians was that Adam and Eve was basically like a template. and that Eden was actually nothing but an testing ground for god to see whenever the human templates (aka Adam/eve) would prove themselves good enough to live on the earth.

Maybe God actually wanted Eve to take that apple, as proof that she had enough freewill to think for herself and the like. If Adam and Eve blindly followed God and didn't really think for themselves... then they would had been nothing but upright walking animals, just like the gorillas.

So when Eve went against orders, she proved that she had freewill to make her own choices. This satisfied god, who then sent Adam and eve out into the world.

Then he started working on more humans while Adam and Eve learned how to live in the wild, and had children.

This way years later Adam and Eve's 33 sons and 23 daughters were able to find people outside their own family.

Keep in mind that back then in biblical times people apparently lived a very long time in the stories if you were to take it literally. in the stories, the childhood of the average human lasted 100 years! so a person could live to be 300 years old.

how wonderful it would be if we didn't have to be parents until we were 150 years old. S6

So if this was to be taken literally, then this means that God had plenty of times to make more humans basing off Adam and eve as templates but with some minor differences.
Quote: “A society that puts equality… ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality or freedom…a society that puts freedom first will, as a happy by-product, end up with both greater freedom and greater equality.” --Milton Friedman
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#22
AM,

Most Christians think all of these stories are metaphors,not real. Most don't think there was really Adam&Eve,a flood,an Exodus of Jews out from Egypt,a parting of the Red Sea,etc.

About 30-35% of American Christians(like myself) assume the Bible is meant literally except in obvious cases such as parables,anthropopathisms or what I would call "apocalyptic genre" where symbols are used.

Like here's an example of "apocalyptic genre" and it's not an exact quote.

Somewhere in Isaiah,he writes about the "great and terrible day of the Lord" that "Messiah will walk through blood up to his waist on that day".

Or it might say it like this,"Messiah's cloak will be soaked with blood up to His waist on that day".

Anyway,that is interpreted as meaning this,That DAY ain't gonna be fun for the society who was prophesied to receive that terrible judgment on that day.

It is meant to give a picture,an awful picture,but,not to be taken as if Messiah walked through a river of blood literally.

There are others,the revelation is probably 85% apocalyptic genre,not literal,literary. Much of Daniel is,lots of Isaiah is,several other prophets had apocalyptic genre in them.

Matthew has a lot. "On that day,the moon will turn to blood,the sun will go out,columns of fire,etc".

That's an old Hebrew technique to grab your attention,not to be taken literally.

Then,there is a smaller minority of Christians who would get mad at me for saying what I just did,they would say everything in the Bible is 100% literal info. I've had guys get ticked off at me over this issue.

They're maybe 10% of the 35%.
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#23
When symbols are used in Bible prophecy, the definition for the symbol can always be found elsewhere in Scripture. This works, because the whole Bible was inspired by One Divine Mind.

For example, "waters" and "sea" are used as prophetic metaphors in Daniel and Revelation. Revelation 17:15 gives an explicit definition for this symbol: "Then he said to me, 'The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.'" (NKJV) This same definition makes perfect sense when "plugged into" all prophecies that use this same symbol, such as where beasts that we are told represent great empires emerge out of the sea. (See for example Dan. 7:3; Rev. 13:1) And certainly empires arise out of "peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues." The "sea" of humanity!

A very important caution is given concerning prophetic interpretation in 2 Peter 1: 20: "knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation." (NKJV) This means that prophecy is not a competition to see who can be the most imaginative! The only way to avoid a private interpretation is to follow a strict method of allowing the Bible itself to provide the definitions for all prophetic symbols, and apply them to the period of history (or future time) that context tells us the prophecies apply to. Again, this works because all the prophecies of the Bible were inspired by One Divine Mind--as stated in the next verse, 2 Peter 1:21: "for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." (NKJV)

As for whether particular specifications of a prophecy are to be taken literally or symbolically, the most obvious course is to see first if what is said CAN be taken literally. If it is clearly unreasonable to take it literally, then it must be symbolic. And Tim LaHaye and his ilk to the contrary, the words "like" and "as" do not have to be present. Neither is present in Rev. 17:15, which I quoted earlier, which directly states that "waters" actually represents something else.

Also, in an extended apocalyptic prophecy like Revelation, or Zechariah 1-6, or descriptions of visions given in Daniel, we should expect that terms that are used are most likely symbolic.

There is nothing in the Genesis Creation accounts that suggests that anything is being presented in a figurative or metaphorical sense. Those who wish to think this are imposing their own predilections upon the text, and this kind of thinking usually seems to derive from the reluctance of skeptics to believe in miracles or divine power.
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#24
I believe in miracles and divine power, but remain a skeptic because I believe the story of Noah is nothing more than a metaphor.
'It's not who votes that matters, it's who counts the votes'  |  György Schwartz, Budapest, Hungary
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#25
The latest take on the Ark discovery is now more jaded. Evidentally, the "scientific discovery" was announced via press conference - not in scientific journals - and no follow-up documentation has been provided. The claim of carbon-dating is just so much rhetoric at this time.
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#26
WarBicycle Wrote:I believe in miracles and divine power, but remain a skeptic because I believe the story of Noah is nothing more than a metaphor.

Agreed. But actually, it's an elaborate metaphor, called an allegory.

Quote:Allegory is a form of extended metaphor, in which objects, persons, and actions in a narrative, are equated with the meanings that lie outside the narrative itself. The underlying meaning has moral, social, religious, or political significance, and characters are often personifications of abstract ideas as charity, greed, or envy.
Thus an allegory is a story with two meanings, a literal meaning and a symbolic meaning.

The bible, especially the Old Testament, is nothing more than a multi-chapter book of Laws, and Moral Lessons, using history for that purpose.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#27
Kind of like the Koran.
'It's not who votes that matters, it's who counts the votes'  |  György Schwartz, Budapest, Hungary
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#28
To the skeptical believers,how do you guys determine what isn't allegory or metaphor? Not being argumentative,just asking.
That would be my problem if I was partially skeptical,deciding when not to be.
My basic view is if God exists and created the universe and resurrected Jesus,all the other "miracles" seem small potatoes.

As far as the ark really being found,that's silly,no wood structure could survive 5-10,000 years. I don't understand why some Christians or Jews would fall for this.
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#29
I can't believe there are still poeple in 2010 telling Noah's Ark has been foun on the Ararat Mount.
You can believe in miracles. Not in stupidities.
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#30
Fred,

I agree of course with that. Now,go get your Bible and read Numbers 13:33. Do you believe there were giants so large they made normal men feel like grasshoppers?

I ask this of all the skeptics.
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#31
Palladin Wrote:To the skeptical believers,how do you guys determine what isn't allegory or metaphor? Not being argumentative,just asking.
That would be my problem if I was partially skeptical,deciding when not to be.
My basic view is if God exists and created the universe and resurrected Jesus,all the other "miracles" seem small potatoes.

As far as the ark really being found,that's silly,no wood structure could survive 5-10,000 years. I don't understand why some Christians or Jews would fall for this.

Pat, wood can survive in many places, under many different conditions. Ancient ships have been found almost intact, in the Med, dating back thousands of years ago, and they are quite intact. At high temperatures, where there is less oxygen, and lower temperatures, I would think that wood could survive better than at sea level. To me that is not the real issue here.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#32
Palladin Wrote:Fred,

I agree of course with that. Now,go get your Bible and read Numbers 13:33. Do you believe there were giants so large they made normal men feel like grasshoppers?

I ask this of all the skeptics.

My guess: genes. This is still going on today. It's entirely possible for large people to have lived back then, due to genetic isolation and endogamy. The same reason why there are so many Ashkenazi Jews, who are red haired and freckled faced. It's all in the genes.

And remember too. With the advent of agriculture, and the breakdown of hunting and gathering, agricultural societies, consumed less balanced diets, and thusly were shorter than more primitive societies. Most ancient societies averaged males around five feet tall. A seven foot tall barbarian would be a giant to them(that's close to 50% taller)

Again, the bible took the base truth, and bent it to suit their needs to teach a moral story. If they added a foot, or two, to the barbarian, the effect was easier to understand, to those being instructed. That still doesn't make the tale untrue, just exaggerated. It happens all the time, so why should the old testament be any different? After all, it was written by humans, albeit inspired humans. But the basic truth is still there.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#33
John,

No,the authors of the Bible didn't need to bend anything on giants,they definitely existed and I mean GIANTS. I have some photos of several giant skeletons from northern Greece recently uncovered,but,I just cannot figure out how to post them here even after you told me how.


Comparing the living man and the full skeleton I have in one of the photos,the one looks to be at a minimum 12-15' tall,probably 5' wide.

Make Goliath look little they're so huge,he was around 8"6". Just a punk.
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#34
There are giants now in the cases of several people with gland problems, etc.
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#35
Palladin Wrote:John,

No,the authors of the Bible didn't need to bend anything on giants,they definitely existed and I mean GIANTS. I have some photos of several giant skeletons from northern Greece recently uncovered,but,I just cannot figure out how to post them here even after you told me how.


Comparing the living man and the full skeleton I have in one of the photos,the one looks to be at a minimum 12-15' tall,probably 5' wide.

Make Goliath look little they're so huge,he was around 8"6". Just a punk.

You are going to have to produce evidence to back that one up Patrick. I know of nobody that big, who could have the joints to support such size. Every person suffering from extra growth has terrible knee and hip joint problems. Most of them can only walk with the aid of supports.

I've seen a lot of skeletal material, but never anything resembling what you are talking about. The only large relative to man, which were anywhere near that height, was Gigantopithecus.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#36
Giant people did exist.

http://7footersplus.blogspot.com/

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/the-30-ta...eople-ever

8 feet tall is pretty huge! I think some humans could had easily grown to 12 feet tall, even if it might give them health problems later on in life.
Quote: “A society that puts equality… ahead of freedom will end up with neither equality or freedom…a society that puts freedom first will, as a happy by-product, end up with both greater freedom and greater equality.” --Milton Friedman
relax. it's only the internet!
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#37
Tait,

Yea,I've seen the documentary on those unfortunate people,sad situations.

John,

If I learn how to post the photos,I will. The head of one of these guys is as big as my hips for example. The photo of the full length one they found(totally intact) looks to be 12-15' long,5' wide if you imagine the filled out body. His spine looks like a 2X4".

These aren't giants like 7-8',these guys were GIANTS just like described in the Bible,which made the guys feel like grasshoppers when they saw them. Somewhere a couple of hundred miles north of Athens it looks like on a map.
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#38
Never know JohnL, maybe some holdovers after the *extinction* carried on?
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#39
BTW,these skeletons are not a "relative of man". They're obviously human remains.
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#40
Pat, use this:

http://photobucket.com/

Upload them from your computer to here after you create a free account, and then post them here, the ones with the [img] tags.
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