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Carved-up Map of Turkey at NATO Prompts US Apology
09-29-2006, 10:47 AM
Post: #1
Carved-up Map of Turkey at NATO Prompts US Apology
INTERNATIONAL 09.29.2006 Friday - ISTANBUL 17:36

Carved-up Map of Turkey at NATO Prompts US Apology
By Suleyman Kurt, Ankara
Friday, September 29, 2006
zaman.com


A map prepared by a retired U.S. military officer that sketches Turkey as a partitioned country was presented at the NATO’s Defense College in Rome, where Turkish officers attend.

[Image: harita_b.jpg]

The use of the map at a conference meeting by a colonel from the U.S. National War Academy angered Turkish military officers.

Turkish Chief of Staff Gen. Yasar Buyukanit called the U.S. Chief of Staff Gen. Peter Pace, and protested the incident. U.S. military authorities admitted the mistake, for which they apologized to Turkey.

According to the reports, the incident took place on Sept. 15.

An American colonel who came to the Defense College for a conference began a lecture on technology.

However, a few minutes later he presented a map that showed Turkey as separated, and included an “independent Kurdistan” on Turkish territories.

In reaction to the U.S. colonel’s elaboration on the map, previously characterized by U.S. authorities as not reflective of the American view, the Turkish officers left the conference room.

The Belgian commander of the College was then informed about the incident.

The commander reacted, saying that academic freedom did not mean everybody could say anything he wanted, and cited the incident as unacceptable.

Turkish officers also briefed Ankara about the developments relevant to the incident.

The U.S. State Department assured Ankara that the map did not reflect the official American view, and denounced it as unacceptable.

The new Middle East map, prepared by retired Col. Ralph Peters and published in the Armed Forces Journal in June, had sparked reactions in Ankara.
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09-29-2006, 11:14 AM
Post: #2
 
Kamil, that is all wel and good, but what is YOUR opinon here? You are expected to give a short critique and state the reason for the thread, and what your position happens to be.

Further, you give no link, which is also required.

Angin, what is your opinon?


By the way, the article was by Ralph Peters.

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The goal of socialism is communism - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

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09-29-2006, 11:32 AM
Post: #3
 
According to the article the map was drawn by retired colonel Ralph Peters.

Link to the article at English version of Zaman is at http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&a...9&hn=36919

Turkish versions of the news in the media is much more critical and summarizes that whatever reason Ralph Peters has drawn that map, using the map in NATO School is not helpfull in maintaining the unity of the organization.
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My opinions, I think Turks reacted to the map like Texans would if they were shown a map with half of Texas and Alamo being in the Mexican territotary.

While United States depends to get over 60% of their refined fuel and other supplies from Turkey for their war efforts in Iraq, I think it is a bad idea to create more hostility from the neighboring countries.
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09-29-2006, 11:47 AM
Post: #4
 
Kamil Wrote:According to the article the map was drawn by retired colonel Ralph Peters.

Link to the article at English version of Zaman is at http://www.zaman.com/?bl=international&a...9&hn=36919

Turkish versions of the news in the media is much more critical and summarizes that whatever reason Ralph Peters has drawn that map, using the map in NATO School is not helpfull in maintaining the unity of the organization.
-------------------
My opinions, I think Turks reacted to the map like Texans would if they were shown a map with half of Texas and Alamo being in the Mexican territotary.

While United States depends to get over 60% of their refined fuel and other supplies from Turkey for their war efforts in Iraq, I think it is a bad idea to create more hostility from the neighboring countries.

If you will look at the map that Ralph Peters used, you will see that the entire region is divided into what the good Colonel described as a perfect ethnic situation. He also stated that this is an idealist condition and will not happen as he idealized.

I believe that I started a thread about this VERY thing a month ago. Did you read it at the time? Anyway, here is the very article he wrote for the Armed Forces Journal, Blood Brothers. If you look at the map, you will see things as they are today. Click on the map, and it will show you the very map that is causing some Turks to get their "panties" in a wad.

Personally, I find his article to be "spot on" in that it is all about tribal entity and soverignty borders that work along the lines of a seperate people. And in truth, it the map were to be created, 90% of the violence in the middle east woul just suddenly dry up and disappear.

I have stated here numerous time, that the globe is in the process of downsizing. This means that the number of independent, soverign countries is going to baloon, as larger countries are forced to break down into their "Lowest Common Functional Denominator". Do you find this to be adhorent to you?

Democracy is indispensable to socialism - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
The goal of socialism is communism - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

Would you like some other reasons why 'democracy' is not what it is advertised?


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09-29-2006, 12:34 PM
Post: #5
 
I have read your message about the Ralph Peter's article.

However this issue is not about his article.
Another American Colonel Faber presented this map at the NATO College that he is an instructor.
In the class there were 12 Turkish officers present, they protested use of the map without any clarifications about it. When their protests were ignored by Colonel Faber, they walked out of the class. The incident took place on 15th of September 2006.
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09-29-2006, 12:57 PM
Post: #6
 
It's easy to see how Turks would react negatively to this issue,Kamil is right,we would as well to the partition of sectors of the USA for example.

Sometimes though,I wonder if some of these partititons might not actually be best for everyone. Like Armenians and Azeris,Kurds,Arabs,Turks. Seems like Kurds in Turkey are not a net plus to Turkey for example.

They constantly fight the Turk Army and police,they probably(admitting my ignorance here) don't want to serve in the Turk Army,etc. May they be seen as a net drain on the overall resources of Turkey and for this matter,Iran,Syria and Iraq?

I don't see how Armenians inside Azerbaijan are a benefit to the Azeris for example,same basic argument. What good is it for the Serbs to desire to rule the Gheg speaking Albanians in Kosovo?

On the other hand,I guess it's a matter of this is our land deal.
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09-29-2006, 01:47 PM
Post: #7
 
That is why the people, in the areas involved, should be allowed to make their own decisions as to their soverignty in the long run.

Democracy is indispensable to socialism - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
The goal of socialism is communism - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

Would you like some other reasons why 'democracy' is not what it is advertised?


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09-29-2006, 02:10 PM
Post: #8
 
John,

But,it never has been this way. Minorities have never been allowed to just up and decide to be independent without blood spilling.
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09-29-2006, 02:16 PM
Post: #9
 
Palladin Wrote:John,

But,it never has been this way. Minorities have never been allowed to just up and decide to be independent without blood spilling.

It's still possible. The citizens of the Saarland made the choice in the early 60s, I believe, and voted to go back to Germany, rather than France. In Czechoslovokia, the citizens decided to break up and it too was peaceful.

And in the future, I still contend that Quebec will eventualy leave Canada peacefully.

Democracy is indispensable to socialism - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
The goal of socialism is communism - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

Would you like some other reasons why 'democracy' is not what it is advertised?


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09-29-2006, 02:21 PM
Post: #10
 
Yea,that's accurate. I suppose it is the decision of the "majority landholder" to decide to be peaceful or fight it.

We sure fought it here.
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09-29-2006, 09:00 PM
Post: #11
 
An interesting map.
Some things are clear and obvious, like with the Kurds, or Yemen, or Balochi.
Some are mysteries:
1. if they create an "Arab Shia State", why exclude Kuwait?
2. I _think_ that the Herat territory (transferred from Afghanistan to Iran) is not Persian, but rather inhabited by tribes that speak languages related to Persian.-->seeds for another conflict.
3. Why Is Lebanon "Greater" ? Looks about the same, only narrower.
4. Sunni Iraq is a natural merge to Syria or Jordan.
5. And the borders between Jordan, Islamic Sacred State, and the Rump Saudi -- what is the logic there?

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09-29-2006, 09:13 PM
Post: #12
 
Yeah, what the hell is up with creating a "Islamic Holy State"?
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09-29-2006, 09:28 PM
Post: #13
 
Makes IMMINENT SENSE,Anon.

Remove the control of MECCA from the wahabbi sect of Ibn Saud's sons and nephews. Then,the Mecca protection racket goes to less fanatical Muslims. May be THE solution to the problem,who knows?
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09-29-2006, 09:39 PM
Post: #14
 
You will not understand the map if you don't read the article, which I linked above.

Democracy is indispensable to socialism - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
The goal of socialism is communism - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

Would you like some other reasons why 'democracy' is not what it is advertised?


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09-30-2006, 01:02 AM
Post: #15
 
A similar map of Eastern Turkey was drawn by US President Wilson after WWI per Sevres Treaty. The only different was that Armenia was getting parts of North East Anatolia extending to the Black Sea, and Kurds were getting South East of Anatolia
According to Ralph Peter's map Kurdistan covers the areas of North East Turkey to Black Sea, actually where Turks and Lazes outnumber Kurds 10 to 1.

The Sevres Treaty caused Ataturk to motivate all Moslem inhabitants of Anatolia to unite and fight against the invading forces. Ismet Inonu (Kurdish origin) was second in command to Ataturk, and become prime minister and later the second president of Turkey.
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09-30-2006, 01:38 AM
Post: #16
 
John L Wrote:You will not understand the map if you don't read the article, which I linked above.

Yeap, I missed the article. Still, some unexplained questions remain. I think he is wrong on Herat, Persian cultural influence does not equate Persia. Kuwait is unexplained (and so is Qatar), both are Shia-majority arab states. etc.

Kamil,

Interesting second map. My recollection is that Trebisond at some point was linked to Georgia (the Empire of Trebizond, post 4th Crusade, before the Ottoman Empire), but had never any Armenian connection.

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09-30-2006, 04:36 AM
Post: #17
 
Yes MV you are correct about the Eastern Black Sea area of Turkey.
Here is an excerpt from that article that explains the inhabitants of that area.
Quote:The Laz live in the Eastern portion of ancient Pontos , in the area from approximately Trabzon to Batumi, just around the corner of the Black Sea past the Georgian border.

Unrelated to the Pontic Greeks in both language and ancestry, the Laz are a Caucasian people who are related to the Georgians. The Laz probably descend from the inhabitants of ancient Colchis of Jason & the Argonauts fame. Although the exact area of Colchis has not been defined, it was roughly in the same area as the Abkhaz/Ajar regions of present day Georgia and during antiquity was also known as Lazica. The spoken language is Lazuri, a South Caucasian (Kartvelian) language closely related to Mingrelian. It has mostly been an oral language but is now being written in a modified Latin script
.
Link to Laz: http://www.scimitarmusic.com/pontos/laz.html
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