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1/3 of France Voted For an Extremist President
19% for the National-Socialist (Marine Le Pen) + 11% for the Marxist (Melanchon) = 30%

Together they did as well as the socialist (Hollande, also a future disaster for the economy) and more than Sarkozy, separately.

Imagine that they share the governement together:
"I let you nationalize the industries, you let me clean France racialy and ethnicaly."

At least both would agree for a military and police state and leaving the Euro and the EU.


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Fred, why do you call the National Front National Socialists? Because if they really were national Socialists, or even Fascists as some ignorant people tend to throw at them, that would make them Left Wing, not Right Wing. Now, they do share the word 'National' together, but 'Front' and 'Socialist' are not usually the same thing.

From what I can fathom, they are just the opposite of the Collectivist Left Wing, i.e. Socialists, in many respects. Where did you come up with this "National Socialist" description? Colour me confused here.

Oh, and are you saying that the Socialists will reap the benefits of them being eliminated from the finals? Because I would think Sarkozy and Le Pen may well reach some accord in order to thwart the Socialists next week. I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me.

Oh, and on the other side, Jean-Luc Mélenchon may throw his support to the Socialists, and make this all mute.

[Image: governmentstupidity.jpg?w=320&h=79]
It wouldn't be totally stunning to see some alliances like that actually. People feel helpless and see decline, they could try some seriously screwed up tactics.
You know, either way I don't see much hope for France in the immediate future. They are teetering on the brink, just waiting for the slightest breeze to push them one way or the other.

And Obama wants us to emulate the Euros? Amazing.

[Image: governmentstupidity.jpg?w=320&h=79]
I useed the phrase "national socialist" for the Front National (FN) by reference to the Nazy occupation, which Marine Le Pen's (daughter of FN's founder Jean-Marie) grand father was a collaborator.
Today they awkwardly conceal their attraction for nazi values such as nationalism, racism, expelling the foreigners, isolationism, religious intolerance, hatred etc...

Sarkozy is not a friend of the FN, neither a right-wing. This is slander from the left.
He is half jewish and not likely to hang around with hollocaust deniers.
But if you want to be cool, in France and even in Belgium, you must hate Sarkozy because he is the image of the bad guy (vs. the good guys on the left), of the police state and the pro-rich.
Some french still vote for him though. But listening to all the poeple I know, who all hate Sarkozy by fashion more than by opinion, I wonder who.

Hollande will be a calamity because he is staunchly opposed to austerity. Even worse he wants to undo the Sarkozy-Merkel agreement on balanced deficit (a very important EU agreement, almost a treaty).
The consequences of it will be uncalculable.
He is ready to quit the EU/Euro if need be.
He has also crazy ideas about taxing the very high salaries 75%. But that's not a problem, these poeple will be paid by off shore middlemen.

My only hope is that he will be unable to do this, that he is a liar who knows he won't do it.

It's not Obama who want to immitate the French, it's the (left) French who don't want to imitate Obama.
Obama should be president of the EU, ASAP, IMO.
Obama and Sarkozy agree on almost everything.

Now, John, your definition of fascism is a bit complicated to me and I can make sure that you will say that they are not fascist, so I'm avoiding this term as much as possible.
On another forum, I'd use the word fascist in the sens everybody understand.
I believe Marine Le Pen has gone to great lengths to weed out any of the people you mention. If her grandfather was like that, that certainly does not mean she is.

As for the 'fascism' thing, what everybody is supposed to understand, does that mean they are correct? Is this a consensus sort of thing now? Fascism is nothing more than a political-economic system that uses heavy regulation and State Control to get what it wants. Very few would call Franco Spain, or Peronist Argentina, as examples of a Fascist State. But they were. If you don't believe me, please show me the error of my ways, ok?

And remember, just as people in the US tend to totally misconstrue the definition of "Liberal", so too is that of "Facism". But that still doesn't make it accurate, now does it?

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John, Here in Europe we have no illusion about who these nationalist poeple are.
The FN in France, the NV-A in Belgian Flanders: Both actual leaders had a grand father who collaborated.

They do all they can to show a soft image, a politicaly correct nationalism, even pretending that they have nothing against foreigners...
But they didn't fool anyone.

Those who founded these parties and those who vote for them want no less than turning the clock back 100 years.

The extreme left is no less dangerous.
If you read their program, it's Russia anno 1917.
I have no idea where to look for anything to read about these people. You will have to help here.

But note: I believe adamantly in the right for an individual state to secede, if it is unhappy with the central government. And I am highly nationalistic. Does that put me in the same camp?

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JOhn: Here is a good short analysis about the likely next french President's policy.
I hope that as a perfect socialist politician he lies shamelessly on his program and will do just the opposite.
The article says why in a few words.

Here is a short article puting in situation the far Right and the two other candidates.

FN voter and Winegrower Remy Boursot Wrote:Europe and immigration. As a winegrower, it's Europe that dictates my life. We've lost our sovereignty, and this has killed our small businesses and artisans. We have to get out of the euro currency. And with unemployment on the rise, we hardly need mass immigration
IMO he is all wrong about the EU killing his business.
The EU is the scapgoat for everything from the national debt crisis to bottled wine concurence from Argentina and Chile.
And he obviousely doesn't know what he is talking about when saying that they should leave the euro.

On immigration, they are closer to reality but is it realy original? Sarkozy is anti-immigration as much as the FN but without hiden racial hatred.
Without beeing all racists, poeple who feel immigration is too much are likely to vote Le Pen. Sarkozy was the first non-right-wing president who spoke tough against immigration too. But he is pro-EU, sort of not compatible for certains.

This article shows in my opinion, why Sarkozy is losing to Holland: He speaks honestly and worse he says the right things. It's not popular to everyone.
Holland is a professional liar and a populist. He tells the crowd what they want to hear, not what should be done nor even what he will do. But words bring him votes.
Sarko also made a mistake by talking too much in the sens of the FN ideology, trying to get their votes. He is still a moderate nationalist, but FN fans hate him as much as they hate the left. Only 30% of them would vote for him.

Here's a smart and reasoned contribution from a French reader:
I don't know if it's very smart because she hasn't a clue, but at least she thinks of the pro and the cons, yet with clichés.
This comment is a good snap of how balanced poeple think there.

This article explains why Holland, unlike sarkozy, will reap all the votes for Mélenchon, the extreme-left candidate, at the second turn.
The article is quiet long and tedious to read, but the first paragraphs are interresting.

Here is a shorter opinion from a leftist paper.
Interresting read because it's not too much propagandist. Just their side of the story.
According to Mélenchon's own word, he is dangerous. At least on this point I agree with him.

[Image: Melenchon_art_at_demo-cyberien_94.jpg]

There is a large-ish section of French society for which this kind of language touches a sweet spot.
More about Mélenchon and why we should fear him as much as Le Pen.


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